God and The Will Of Man

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
"They can only choose in one direction -- they exercise their volition, their " freedom " to disobey the Lord."

Add this to my calvinist list of unreal definitions: a choice can be a choice between one thing.

I must have missed the post you're quoting, but I think a better way to say it would be "They are only inclined to choose in one direction." They go with their inclination. They are ABLE to choose otherwise, but they are unwilling to choose otherwise because they are fallen and spiritually dead.

From an academic perspective, one might equate that with "they CAN only choose in one direction, since they cannot be willing to choose otherwise unless God changes their hearts first". But that's a philosophical conclusion, not an accurate description.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
Whatever, it is PRECISELY because God has provided for everyone that His anger is being poured out on those who reject the truth -- which is Him in the long run. He did everything for each of us, which is precisely why no man has an excuse.

Yes, I agree.

You can't blame a dog for doing dog things. You can't blame an elephant for doing elephant things. And you can't blame an unsaved person for doing unsaved things IF HE HAS NPTION, which, under Calvinism, he does not!

Yes, he does. He can do whatever he wants. He can obey God if he wants, and he can believe if he wants, and he can remain in his sin if he wants.

Because of this, Calvinism destroys the entire concept of justice regarding God, just as it has destroyed the meaning of the word 'choice.' Calvinism is fatalism:

No, it is not, not any more than any system that believes in the perfect foreknowledge of God is fatalism.

you are what you are and there's nothing you can do about it. It makes mash of the Gospel message, nonsense of evangelism, and even negates the very reason for a legal system in our cultures. It is a cruel, cruel perversion of the message of the Bible.

No, it is not. You do not understand it. Many others do not understand it. That does not make it wrong.

Andy, in Matthew 5:19 we read that those who break the law and teach others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. I pray this is all the teachers of Calvinism will have to deal with. What I fear for these teachers is that they will hear "depart from me...."

In these exchanges I am indeed evangelizing, but I know better than to try to change Rippon and co. There are a lot of people who read these forums and through the years of dealing with Calvinistic horrors, I have received quite a number of emails and PM's thanking me for helping this or that person to see the truth of what the Bible is saying regarding God's love for all of us. You see, I did not make up that problem of "Can a mother love her child more than God loves him?" That came from someone in tears who thought Calvinism was true and was afraid for her children. And it was entirely logical in terms of what Calvinism has to say. NO, God loves each of us far more than we could ever love one another.

1. Since God loves us each of us far more than we could ever love one another, why does it terrify people to think that He chooses who gets saved? I would think that would thrill people! Is He not to be trusted? Or can I only trust Him if He lets me be in control?

2. God loves you so much that He lets you choose Hell if you want? No thanks. God loves me so much that He gave me eternal life, which I would never have wanted had He left me with the decision.

So it is for those who are struggling with this that I continue to write and sometimes in terms as strong as I have recently used. It is in response to those who have contacted me and need the hope and encouragement which Calvinism robs them of.

Helen, this is as kindly as I can say this. You are spreading lies. I am convinced that you do not mean to, but it is exactly what you are doing. You are saying things about Calvinism that simply are not true, and you are saying things about Calvinists that no Christian should say about another Christian. In fact, most Christians wouldn't talk about non-Christians that way.


Riddle me this:

Jonah 1:15 - So they picked up Jonah and hurled him into the sea, and the sea ceased from its raging.

Jonah 2:3 - For you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me; all your waves and your billows passed over me.

Who threw Jonah into the sea? God or his automatons?

 

[Rippon]

Don't stop her Andy . She's on a roll . She speaks in a hateful manner about others regarding her loving God . She is just warming up her arsenal of adjectives .

 

[Helen]

1. Since God loves us each of us far more than we could ever love one another, why does it terrify people to think that He chooses who gets saved? I would think that would thrill people! Is He not to be trusted? Or can I only trust Him if He lets me be in control?

Quite a thrill for those who never stand a chance of anything but hell!

The sailors did not have to throw Jonah into the sea. Jonah did not have to disobey in the first place... Obedience and disobedience are choices.

I know you think I am spreading lies. But please be aware that that is my exact opinion of those who preach Calvinism. You deny people hope, tell them they can't seek God, that they are irredeemably evil, literally. That's not what the Bible says.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
1. Since God loves us each of us far more than we could ever love one another, why does it terrify people to think that He chooses who gets saved? I would think that would thrill people! Is He not to be trusted? Or can I only trust Him if He lets me be in control?

Quite a thrill for those who never stand a chance of anything but hell!

I thought we were talking about a believing mother. Why would it terrify a believing mother to think that God would determine her children's fate, unless she really wasn't sure that she could trust God after all?

The sailors did not have to throw Jonah into the sea. Jonah did not have to disobey in the first place... Obedience and disobedience are choices.

Of course they are. So do you agree that God can ordain man's free choices? That's a good start. Acts 4:27-28 gives another good example of this truth.

I know you think I am spreading lies. But please be aware that that is my exact opinion of those who preach Calvinism. You deny people hope, tell them they can't seek God, that they are irredeemably evil, literally. That's not what the Bible says.

I know you are spreading lies. I don't think you mean to, but you are. To the point - I have never denied anyone hope, or told anyone they cannot seek God or that they are irredeemably evil. And yet you just accused me of all of that. Doesn't that bother you?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
I must have missed the post you're quoting, but I think a better way to say it would be "They are only inclined to choose in one direction." They go with their inclination. They are ABLE to choose otherwise, but they are unwilling to choose otherwise because they are fallen and spiritually dead.

From an academic perspective, one might equate that with "they CAN only choose in one direction, since they cannot be willing to choose otherwise unless God changes their hearts first". But that's a philosophical conclusion, not an accurate description.

Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Are you saying man doesn't know "good and evil" "BEFORE" he is called/saved???

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
I must have missed the post you're quoting, but I think a better way to say it would be "They are only inclined to choose in one direction." They go with their inclination. They are ABLE to choose otherwise, but they are unwilling to choose otherwise because they are fallen and spiritually dead.

From an academic perspective, one might equate that with "they CAN only choose in one direction, since they cannot be willing to choose otherwise unless God changes their hearts first". But that's a philosophical conclusion, not an accurate description.

Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Are you saying man doesn't know "good and evil" "BEFORE" he is called/saved??? </font>[/QUOTE]No, I'm not saying that. I have no idea what that has to do with the price of tea in china, but the answer is no.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Are you saying man doesn't know "good and evil" "BEFORE" he is called/saved???

No, I'm not saying that. I have no idea what that has to do with the price of tea in china, but the answer is no.

I'm not surprised at your "no idea", , if man knows "good/evil" before he is saved, he evidently knows "right from wrong", does he not??

so, what's to prevent him from chosing the right and rejecting the wrong, surely you aren't saying that the unsaved "NEVER" do anything that is "right", are you??

Calvin does.

Pr 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Proverbs chapter 2

1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;

2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;

3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;

4 If thou seekest her (knowledge) as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;

5 THEN (after the "IF") shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

Why does God give Israel a "CHOICE" and not the "Church"???

 

[npetreley]

Me4,

Here's the difference between me and you. I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with it. You disagree with what I'm saying but you also clearly don't understand it.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Me4,

Here's the difference between me and you. I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with it. You disagree with what I'm saying but you also clearly don't understand it.

Here's the "TRUTH".

God loved the whole world, Jesus didn't come to condemn the world and die for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" (either way) saved, "IF" (their choice) they had "FAITH" in "JESUS".

Any/Everything that contradict the above is a "LIE".


"Short/Sweet".

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Helen:
I know you think I am spreading lies. But please be aware that that is my exact opinion of those who preach Calvinism. You deny people hope, tell them they can't seek God, that they are irredeemably evil, literally. That's not what the Bible says.

Does this sound like a denial of hope?

Therefore,—

"Come, ye sinners, poor and wretched,
Weak and wounded, sick and sore;
Jesus ready stands to save you,
Full of pity join'd with power;
He is able,
He is willing; doubt no more.
"Let not conscience make you linger,
Nor of fitness fondly dream;
All the fitness He requireth,
Is to feel you need of Him:
This He gives you;
'Tis the Spirit's rising beam."

Sinner, trust in Jesus: and if thou dost perish trusting in Jesus, I will perish with thee. I will make my bed in hell, side by side with thee, sinner, if thou canst perish trusting in Christ, and thou shalt lie there, and taunt me to all eternity for having taught thee falsely, if we perish. But that can never be; those who trust in Jesus shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of His hand. Come to Jesus, and He will in no wise cast thee out.

May the Lord bless the words I have spoken! Though hastily suggested to my mind, and feebly delivered to you, the Lord bless them, for Christ's sake! Amen.

Now go read the rest of the sermon. It's by Spurgeon, and he preaches election in no uncertain terms.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/sum&sub.htm

 

[Me4Him]

The doctrine of Election is God's purposing in His heart that He would make some men better than other men; that He would give to some men more grace than to other men; that some should come out and receive the mercy; that others, left to their own free will, should reject it; that some should gladly accept the invitations of mercy, while others, of their own accord, stubbornly refuse the mercy to which the...."whole world of mankind is invited"....

All men, by nature, refuse the invitations of the gospel. God, in the sovereignty of His grace, makes a difference by secretly inclining the hearts of some men, by the power of His Holy Spirit, to partake of His everlasting mercy in Christ Jesus. I am certain that, whether we are Calvinists or Arminians, if our hearts are right with God, we shall all adoringly testify: "We love Him, because He first loved us." If that be not Election, I know not what it is.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,

There is no living soul beyond the reach of hope,

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

You cannot come the wrong way; it is written, "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him." "No man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father" (John vi.44,65). If, then, you come to Christ in any way, you are drawn of the Father, and He cannot draw the wrong way. If you come to Christ at all, the power and will to come have been given you of the Father.

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Let the whole world come, still this promise is big enough to embrace them all in its arms.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I do think this is what Jesus Christ says to every creature under heaven. The gospel invitation runs thus: "Come, come, come to Christ, just as you are."

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

"IF"

1. whole world of mankind is invited
2. There is no living soul beyond the reach of hope
3. Let the whole world come,
4. Jesus Christ says to every creature under heaven, "Come, come, come to Christ, just as you are.


"HOW" can "GOD'S WILL/LOVE" be divided among sinners????

 

[npetreley]

Me4,

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you quote Spurgeon out of context in ignorance, but I find that difficult to do. You don't strike me as an ignorant person, just misguided. I hope I am wrong in adding to that "dishonest", which is what you would be if you quoted Spurgeon out of context on purpose. Nevertheless, it is pointless to continue discussing things with you directly if you're going to quote people out of context. So I think I will make this my last post in direct response to anything you have to say.

There is no living soul beyond the reach of hope

For the benefit of others, I will post the entire sentence. That way they can see that your logic is in error, because it is based on a misrepresentation of what Spurgeon said.

There is no living soul beyond the reach of hope, no chosen one whom Christ cannot bring up even from the very gates of hell.

I suggest that if readers really want to know what Spurgeon was talking about, they read the WHOLE sermon, not just snippets deliberately chopped out of the sermon by a person with a free will axe to grind.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:

For the benefit of others, I will post the entire sentence. That way they can see that your logic is in error, because it is based on a misrepresentation of what Spurgeon said.

There is no living soul beyond the reach of hope, no chosen one whom Christ cannot bring up even from the very gates of hell.

I suggest that if readers really want to know what Spurgeon was talking about, they read the WHOLE sermon, not just snippets deliberately chopped out of the sermon by a person with a free will axe to grind.

Is an unsaved person a "living soul"??

"there is no living soul",

"no chosen one whom Christ cannot bring up even from the very gates of hell"

Seem to me he is talking out of both sides of his mouth, do you know what that means??

God isn't willing for any to perish, so name one sinner God wouldn't "CHOSE" to saved from the gates of Hell if they believed.

Calvin doctrine destroyed everything the scripture/Spirit teach.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Is an unsaved person a "living soul"??

"there is no living soul",

"no chosen one whom Christ cannot bring up even from the very gates of hell"

Seem to me he is talking out of both sides of his mouth, do you know what that means??

Spurgeon was making a general statement and then defining what he meant in the next sentence. It is the same thing Paul does in 1 Timothy 2 when he instructs them to pray "for all men, for kings and those in authority."

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
Is an unsaved person a "living soul"??

"there is no living soul",

"no chosen one whom Christ cannot bring up even from the very gates of hell"

Seem to me he is talking out of both sides of his mouth, do you know what that means??

Spurgeon was making a general statement and then defining what he meant in the next sentence. It is the same thing Paul does in 1 Timothy 2 when he instructs them to pray "for all men, for kings and those in authority." </font>[/QUOTE]That's why I said that if anyone really wants to know what Spurgeon was talking about, they should read the whole sermon, not snippets picked out for the purpose of twisting them and mocking them.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
Is an unsaved person a "living soul"??

"there is no living soul",

"no chosen one whom Christ cannot bring up even from the very gates of hell"

Seem to me he is talking out of both sides of his mouth, do you know what that means??

Spurgeon was making a general statement and then defining what he meant in the next sentence. It is the same thing Paul does in 1 Timothy 2 when he instructs them to pray "for all men, for kings and those in authority." </font>[/QUOTE]"IF" he believed that there are "some" predestined to hell, then he shouldn't say, "there is no living soul",

The contrast between "no living soul" and "only the chosen" is not a "mistake" one would make in a clearly defined doctrine, especially if they're preaching "by the spirit".

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
That's why I said that if anyone really wants to know what Spurgeon was talking about, they should read the whole sermon, not snippets picked out for the purpose of twisting them and mocking them. [/QB]

Why don't you try that with the scriptures??

God "commended his love" to "ALL MEN" while they were "YET SINNERS", without "Respect of persons". (sinners)