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God can only save those who believe

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Isaiah40:28, Apr 21, 2008.

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  1. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    So you believe that God only seeks to save those who He knows will be saved?
    And in His "reaching", is He not trying to save all mankind?
    God desires that all repent and none perish, yet according to your statements, God can only save those who put their faith in Christ.
    He wants to save everyone but He cannot unless they believe.
    Let's flesh this out.
    God wants to save "Bob", "Sue", and "John", but only "Sue" will believe, so he loses "Bob" and "John". He is powerless to save them. He desires that all repent and none perish, but Bob and John will perish because God cannot save them unless they first believe.
    So why pray to God about "Bob" and "John"?
    What can He do that He has not already done?? He wants to save them, yet He cannot. He is powerless.

    You said this above:
    How does that work with "Bob" and "John"?
    Does He not want to save them?
     
    #1 Isaiah40:28, Apr 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2008
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    First, it's against BB rules to put a member's name in the topic heading. :)

    edited...has since been removed
    No
    He doesn't "try" to do anything. He draws all. Those who EXCHANGE the truth for a lie had the truth. You can't exchange a blue shirt for a red one if you never had the blue one.
    God "can" do what He wishes. It so happens this is how He has determined salvation. Who are you to question what and how God chooses to do so?
    Non sequitur. This analogy is flawed on so many levels, it's really not worthy of a response.
     
    #2 webdog, Apr 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2008
  3. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I don't like the phrase "God can't".

    God can do anything He desires, meaning He is able. But according to God's own word He doesn't save anyone unless they believe.
    We must have faith. This is God's chosen way.




    Edit: sorry Webdog, I think we were posting at the same time.
     
    #3 Amy.G, Apr 21, 2008
  4. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    Amy,
    God can't sin.
    Do you "like" that phrase?
     
    #4 Isaiah40:28, Apr 21, 2008
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    No. I don't like that one either. :laugh:

    God won't sin.
     
    #5 Amy.G, Apr 21, 2008
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    God can't do anything against His nature (sin). Saving those who conform to Him is not going against His nature, in fact He is bound by HIS nature and must save those who conform to His.
     
    #6 webdog, Apr 21, 2008
  7. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Maybe it's just a personal quirk with me, but I don't like the word "can't" when speaking of God.

    Was Jesus really tempted in the wilderness if He can't sin?

    Can God make a rock that's too heavy for Him to lift?

    Just too many sticky wickets. God won't sin, because it goes against His nature.


    Ok, I'm done. Sorry for hyjacking your thread Isaiah. :saint:
     
    #7 Amy.G, Apr 21, 2008
  8. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    And when He "draws all", is He not wanting all to be saved?
    Deal with the issue, webdog.
    I stated:
    He cannot save those who do not believe.
    How "can" He?
    Salvation comes from belief.
    If you believe, you are saved.
    If you do not believe, you are not saved.
    Again:
    If you do not believe, God cannot save you.
    He desires that all be saved, yet He cannot save all unless all believe.

    Do you teach your children that God "can" save them if they do not believe?
    No, you are teaching them that if they believe God "can" and will save them.
    I ask you, what if they do not believe, "can" God save them?
    Show me please, where this is a "non sequitur" and a "flawed analogy".
     
    #8 Isaiah40:28, Apr 21, 2008
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Absolutely. He desires that all repent on none perish.
    What is the issue with this? I agree with this.

    This issue with your analogy is "He is powerless to save them".

    We pray to God about "Bob" and "John" because we want them to be saved in the same manner God desires. We are conforming our will to that of God in doing so. Also, Scripture is chock full of God responding to man's prayer requests.
     
    #9 webdog, Apr 21, 2008
  10. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    I don't mind.
    You need to adjust your thinking about this.
    The Bible speaks of things that God "cannot" do.
    We are not "safer" than the Holy Spirit.
    If the Bible says there are things God cannot do, then using that language is biblical.
    You seem to think that you are somehow limiting God if you say there are things God cannot do.
    You are not limiting Him.
    Sin is a lack of power.
    God does not lack any power and therefore cannot sin. Also His perfect Holiness means He cannot sin and the fact that there is no being that God must give an account to or obey. He is God, there is no other, therefore He cannot sin.
     
    #10 Isaiah40:28, Apr 21, 2008
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If I recall she did adjust her thinking on this (twice :))

    As for the above bolded, when applying this language outside of God's character, it is not biblical. God is bound by His holiness. If He weren't, He would cease to be God and would be no better than man.

    Is the point of this thread to debate whether God CAN save someone outside of How He has declared it? I'm not understanding the purpose yet...
     
    #11 webdog, Apr 21, 2008
  12. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    So what does this mean?:
    He obviously does not save everyone He wants, but only those who believe.
    God wants to save more than He can save.
    That's why I say He is powerless according to your views.
    He cannot save all those who He wants to save.
    He can only save those who believe.
    He does not have the power over anyone's salvation. Man has the power.

    But what you mean is that He does want to save someone, but He cannot
    This issue with your analogy is "He is powerless to save them".

    I don't understand your statements at all.

    That is true, but that's not what we are talking about.
     
    #12 Isaiah40:28, Apr 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2008
  13. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    Faith:
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    God wants all to be saved, but He doesn't force himself on anyone. Man has the unique position to choose.

    What is so hard about that?

    God knows who will and who won't choose, but He doesn't tell us.

    So, he draws all men, but only those who accept Him are saved.

    No, God does not sin. he is perfect holiness, perfection personified if you will. He cannot sin because he is truth. his actions are therefore true, even if we, in our finite being, consider those actions to be sin. Is causing the deaths of people sinful? Allowing a drunk driver to plow into a group of school children? Letting people butcher unborn children? We see all of this as wrong, sin, but God allows it. He is not sinning, as His plan is in action and He knows all of the details. We presume to know His thoughts and intents, but we are so far from His perfection that we cannot hope to ever even scratch the surface.
     
    #13 Trotter, Apr 21, 2008
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    It's determined by the context it was given, no?
    How does this make Him powerless, if He so sovereignly declared this :confused:
    I guess the understanding would come depending on the view or purpose of prayer.
     
    #14 webdog, Apr 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2008
  15. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    What is unbiblical about saying that God cannot save those who do not believe?
     
    #15 Isaiah40:28, Apr 21, 2008
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I don't ever recall saying that particular statement is unbiblical.
     
    #16 webdog, Apr 21, 2008
  17. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    Exactly.
    He knows with perfect certainty.
    So why interpret passages in such a way that make God look inept?
    God wants to save people, yet He cannot.
    Why?
    Because man won't let Him.
    Man has the power.
    God does not.
    He is powerless to save the very ones He wants to save. So God in vain desires that which He can never have, the salvation of all mankind.
    So God loses. He wants that which He cannot have and the non-Cal says,
    "What is so hard about that?"
    Apparently nothing if you can't see the problems with God knowing those who will not be saved, yet He "draws" them all anyway.
    What does the "drawing" do for those who will never be saved?
     
    #17 Isaiah40:28, Apr 21, 2008
  18. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    So you agree then?
    God cannot save those who do not believe.
     
    #18 Isaiah40:28, Apr 21, 2008
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Yes. You do not?
     
    #19 webdog, Apr 21, 2008
  20. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    What I said:
    What you said:
    So why did you answer that way if you agree?
     
    #20 Isaiah40:28, Apr 21, 2008
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