God does not love all mankind

[Forest]

Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth and scourgest every son whom he receiveth. If we find scripture where it says that God does not chasten certain people, we may conclude that he does not love them, right? Ps 73:5 and Job 21:9.

 

[Mark_13]

I think you're probably on to something there.

 

[mont974x4]

Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." NASB

 

[webdog]

Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth and scourgest every son whom he receiveth. If we find scripture where it says that God does not chasten certain people, we may conclude that he does not love them, right? Ps 73:5 and Job 21:9.

My son's friend is our neighbor, who is over just about every day. He comes from a broken home where he has numerous step siblings and his father is overseas in the military. Now it is faulty logic to state that since I don't discipline him in the same manner as my son it means I don't love him. The exact opposite is true. Context rules.

 

[mont974x4]

No one claims the discipline method is the same. Only that God disciplines the ones He loves. That is biblical.

 

[Aaron]

My son's friend is our neighbor, who is over just about every day. He comes from a broken home where he has numerous step siblings and his father is overseas in the military. Now it is faulty logic to state that since I don't discipline him in the same manner as my son it means I don't love him. The exact opposite is true. Context rules.

Heb. 12:6 is about God, not dawg. Context rules.

 

[webdog]

Heb. 12:6 is about God, not dawg. Context rules.

Then learn it.

 

[convicted1]

Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth and scourgest every son whom he receiveth. If we find scripture where it says that God does not chasten certain people, we may conclude that he does not love them, right? Ps 73:5 and Job 21:9.

Well, God so loved the world........


kosmos is the word used for the word "world".


Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world(John 1:29).


kosmos used again.


God has no pleasure in the death of the unrighteous, but in His righteousness, they must receive their reward if they die in their sins.

 

[convicted1]

Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." NASB

I may be wrong here, but doesn't hated here, mean "love less"?

 

[Iconoclast]

I may be wrong here, but doesn't hated here, mean "love less"?

Hey willis...i passed through Louisa again around 930 pm...but had to deliver in central Va. in a few hours...so no breakfast yet...here is some spiritual food from CHS...I was discussing this very sermon with another poster tonight!

“Jacob have I loved, but Esau
have I hated.”
It is a terrible text, and I will be honest with it if I can. One man says the
word “hate” does not mean hate; it means “love less:” — “Jacob have I
loved, but Esau have I loved less.” It may be so; but I don’t believe it is. At
any rate, it says “hate” here; and until you give me another version of the
Bible, I shall keep to this one. I believe that the term is correctly and
properly translated; that the word “hate” is not stronger than the original;
but even if it be a little stronger, it is nearer the mark than the other
translation which is offered to us in those meaningless words, “love less.” I
like to take it and let it stand just as it is. The fact is, God loved Jacob, and
he did not love Esau; he did choose Jacob, but he did not choose Esau; he
did bless Jacob, but he never blessed Esau; his mercy followed Jacob all the
way of his life, even to the last, but his mercy never followed Esau; he
permitted him still to go on in his sins, and to prove that dreadful truth,
“Esau have I hated.” Others, in order to get rid of this ugly text, say, it
does not mean Esau and Jacob; it means the nation; it means Jacob’s
children and Esau’s children; it means the children of Israel and Edom. I
should like to know where the difference lies. Is the difficulty removed by
extending it? Some of the Wesleyan brethren say that there is a national
election; God has chosen one nation and not another. They turn round and
tell us it is unjust in God to choose one man and not another. Now, we ask
them by everything reasonable, is it not equally unjust of God to choose
one nation and leave another? The argument which they imagine
overthrows us overthrows them also. There never was a more foolish
subterfuge than that of trying to bring out national election.

 

[Winman]

Some of the Wesleyan brethren say that there is a national
election; God has chosen one nation and not another. They turn round and
tell us it is unjust in God to choose one man and not another. Now, we ask
them by everything reasonable, is it not equally unjust of God to choose
one nation and leave another? The argument which they imagine
overthrows us overthrows them also. There never was a more foolish
subterfuge than that of trying to bring out national election.

Spurgeon, like many Calvinists must have been unfamiliar with Jeremiah chapter 18, which Paul referred to in Romans 9:

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

God was speaking of nations when he spoke of Jacob and Esau, and it is true that he loved Jacob and hated Esau, but there is nothing unconditional or unjust about it. God says in Jeremiah 18 (which Paul is referring to) that if he has spoken concerning a nation to pluck it up and destroy it, if that nation turns from it's evil, God will turn from the evil that he thought to do unto them. Likewise, God said that if he had spoken to build and plant a nation, if that nation do evil and not obey his voice, he would repent of the good that he said he would benefit them.

So, there is nothing unconditional in this, and there is nothing unjust in this, God will bless a nation that repents from their evil and does good, and God will punish a nation that turns from him and does evil.

Calvinists err because they do not know (or choose to ignore) OT scripture well.

 

[quantumfaith]

And being a good "non-determinist" I must ask given any such set of circumstances in life, how does one KNOW that they are a result of God's chastening actions? For truly, if honest, we ALL deserve to STAY under such chastening daily. Rather, our heart should be one to consistently ask in "dire" circumstance (even in wonderful circumstances), God please allow me and inspire me to learn more of how to live properly for YOU.

 

[preacher4truth]

Look at webdog making absolute truth fall under his own subjective experience, as if it conveys truth akin to Biblical truth. :laugh:

:wavey:

This isn't about what wd does, it's about what God does. Huge difference. It seems to always turn to "man" within their theology. "Ye shall be as gods..." ?

By the way, welcome aboard Forest.

(I await debwog and others to come in and help solidify that their subjective personal experiences are on the same level of truth as Gods Word. Again)

 

[glfredrick]

Well, God so loved the world........


kosmos is the word used for the word "world".


Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world(John 1:29).


kosmos used again.


God has no pleasure in the death of the unrighteous, but in His righteousness, they must receive their reward if they die in their sins.

You would have to make a case for "kosmos" equalling "anthropos" before you could make the argument that you just made. Many believe that to be so, but I'm just tossing out there that the passage doesn't necessarily mean what you have attributed to it.

 

[glfredrick]

And being a good "non-determinist" I must ask given any such set of circumstances in life, how does one KNOW that they are a result of God's chastening actions? For truly, if honest, we ALL deserve to STAY under such chastening daily. Rather, our heart should be one to consistently ask in "dire" circumstance (even in wonderful circumstances), God please allow me and inspire me to learn more of how to live properly for YOU.

Very simply, Jesus told us that if we were not "born-again-from-above" (the true way the Greek behind "born-again" reads) then we are "already condemned."

If we are already condemned, then why work further to condemn, if only for actions in this world. Contra that, those who are re-born of the Spirit WILL come under God's chastisement, for they are being fitted for true life to come (instead of just clothed in a semblance of that life during this pre-life existence).

Therein lies one of the a priori presuppositions that drive the anthropologically-centered view of the ordo salutis, i.e., that what happens here and now counts for more than the ultimate life to come.

 

[kyredneck]

Kosmos used here:

....I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18:20

Here:

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.
3 And these things will they do, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
4 But these things have I spoken unto you, that when their hour is come, ye may remember them, how that I told you. And these things I said not unto you from the beginning, because I was with you.
8 And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more;
11 of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged. Jn 16

And here:

8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:
14 having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;
20 If ye died with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances,
21 Handle not, nor taste, nor touch Col 2

I believe it's clear from context that kosmos in these passages is in reference to the 'arrangement' of the old covenant.

 

[psalms109:31]

I will make it simple.

Jesus He loved the world He hated. Yet He put His Son on the cross for the world He hated that whosoever believes in Him will not be condemned but will have eternal life.

So that person in the deepest part of Africa will not be saved, because the messenger of God who He sent to the ends of the earth, didn't think he was important enough to save his life.

1 Thessalonians 2
Paul’s Ministry in Thessalonica
1 You know, brothers and sisters, that our visit to you was not without results. 2 We had previously suffered and been treated outrageously in Philippi, as you know, but with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel in the face of strong opposition. 3 For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you. 4 On the contrary, we speak as those approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please people but God, who tests our hearts. 5 You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed—God is our witness. 6 We were not looking for praise from people, not from you or anyone else, even though as apostles of Christ we could have asserted our authority. 7 Instead, we were like young children[Some manuscripts were gentle] among you.

Just as a nursing mother cares for her children, 8 so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well. 9 Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you. 10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed. 11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12 encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

 

[glfredrick]

I will make it simple.

Huh? Except, you didn't. You confused the issue even more.

 

[mont974x4]

The Greek word from Romans 9:13 is typically defined as "to love less" but we need to remember the context places it in comparison to love. It would be more accurate to say it means loveless, than to love less.

That said, let's look back at Mal 1:2,3 which is what Paul was quoting. The word "hated" in verse 3 is:

H8130
שׂנא
śânê'
saw-nay'
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.


This is the same word that describes God's reaction to evil and those who do evil.

The word hate and abhors are the same Hebrew word.

Psa 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.
Psa 5:6 You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.


The word hates is the same:
Deu 12:31 "You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.


This places us in a position where we must accept and understand the intensity of God's emotion. To say He simply loves some people less is a mistake. To soften this is to deny an important aspect of God. It undermines the the need to fear, revere, and stand in awe of Him.

 

[webdog]

The Greek word from Romans 9:13 is typically defined as "to love less" but we need to remember the context places it in comparison to love. It would be more accurate to say it means loveless, than to love less.

That said, let's look back at Mal 1:2,3 which is what Paul was quoting. The word "hated" in verse 3 is:

H8130
שׂנא
śânê'
saw-nay'
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.


This is the same word that describes God's reaction to evil and those who do evil.

The word hate and abhors are the same Hebrew word.

Psa 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.
Psa 5:6 You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.


The word hates is the same:
Deu 12:31 "You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.


This places us in a position where we must accept and understand the intensity of God's emotion. To say He simply loves some people less is a mistake. To soften this is to deny an important aspect of God. It undermines the the need to fear, revere, and stand in awe of Him.

Now lets apply this line of reasoning to Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26, 1 John 2:11, 3:15 and 4:20.

Also based on what you believe, it is possible to love your child more than God does which goes against the perfect love of God described in Matthew 5:48.