thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
I'm sure some do. But those that do, don't see Him accurately.
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God Eternally Existed Before ANYTHING else was made, correct?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Open Theists tend to see God as within time, but time to them is more of a sequence of events rather than a highly defined view of time informed by Einstein's theories.
Most other Christians see God acting both within and without time.
quantumfaith
Active Member
You might find the discussion on two fundamental "perspectives" on time interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNLKcq6JjYk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNLKcq6JjYk
quantumfaith
Active Member
And here is a great rebuttal article.
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/scholarly-articles/divine-eternity
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/scholarly-articles/divine-eternity
God cannot be restrained/contained within time, for He exists outside and beyond the Universe that He created!
IF he was somehow stuck in time as finite beings are, how could he also know all things, as he would not know until the event actually happened, correct?
Whatever the case, God can at LEAST see time linearly. He may not be, and probably is not, LIMITED to it, but he at LEAST can see it that way.
The Open Theist claims that God does not know exactly what future will unfold because he does not see time the way we see it.
But he AT LEAST sees time the way we see it and sees it in any other way it can be seen at the same time.
That means that he certainly DOES know what will happen in the future no matter HOW you slice it.
The Open Theist claims we are limiting God by limiting him to a linear view of time.
The fact is that we are not limiting him TO that view. They are limiting him FROM that view.
quantumfaith
Active Member
FTR, I do not fall in the camp of the OT. Neither does Dr. Craig.
he does argue for god being 'bound" and constrained within time though, doesn't he?
Don't some OT view God as being involed in an ;'evolutionary process", as to them, He chose to learn and react right along with man, so chose to limit Himself to experiencing and interacting with us based on time restrictions?
And if we chose to see it as being that God can see and knwo ALL differentpossibilities and chooses one to actually happen...
wouldn't it be more biblcal to state that the only possibility to happen is what God purposed and planned, as He predestined what will really come to pass?
quantumfaith
Active Member
No, I do not understand him arguing that, but rather, he does "act" within the confines of what we define time to be....since the creation of "things" measured by time.
Yes, in the broad sense, that's correct. Open Theists have many different viewpoints on this, but they essentially see God acting within time (time merely being a sequence) and God and humankind existing in an eternal "present" - the past is gone and the future is yet to be.
Yes. There are some different views here, but essentially God knows all possibilities and is actively involved in guiding the process so that His will is ultimately accomplished while allowing for the free will of humankind. Teh free will of humankind has natural limits - based on biology and status, as well as our social, political and physical contexts.
There's the fundamental issue between Open Theism and Calvinism. Open Theists see God as actively involved, bringing about His will through human agencies as well as direct involvement. The exact way God's will will be accomplished is not yet written, but God will ensure it will happen. The Calvinist tends to believe that it is much more "scripted" (for lack of a better word) and that God has already ordained very specific things to happen at pre-determined times. Most Calvinists make room for the free will of humankind, but it does not significantly affect God's timetable or anything that God has ordained.
How do you even make this suggestion? Have you read Craig at all?
quantumfaith
Active Member
I think the short answer (and long answer) would be NO.
Does he hold to God being existing right now outside of time, as he is not bound by it as finite/mortal beings like us are, not wrapped in linear time then?
How could God be all knowing in OT, if he has chosen though to observe and experience the future vents 'as they happened?
Bible states that he already knows all things right now, and that He has fixed events and times that will happen !
How can the God of OT being the One of the Bible?
Have you read him? If so, the answer is obvious.
maybe you could enlighten me?
An Open Theist would likely say that God knows everything that there is to know since the future does not yet exist. However, God knows what He intends to do and is actively working to bring about His will.
And Open Theist will likely say that God does indeed know all things "right now" and knows what He intends to do at certain times in the future. The God of the Open Theist is much more interactive than the God of the Calvinists. In both views that people actually hold (not the caricatures that the opposing groups tend to make of each other), God is Lord of Creation and is in control of everything He wants to be in control of. Calvinists tend to think that God maintains tighter control. Open Theists tend to think that God leaves an enormous amount of room for human input while still bringing about His will and purposes. For instance, the Open Theist view of prayer is a little easier to understand since they think that God may indeed change His plans to accommodate our righteous requests. Calvinists tend to see prayer as humankind becoming conformed to God's established will and purposes where our desires have nothing to do with how God will act - our desires are being changed to conform to his will.
I think you can actually make a pretty decent case for Open Theism from the scripture, but in my opinion, the fatal flaw of Open Theism is the issue of the nature of time. The Open Theist view of time (at least from what I have seen) is extremely simplistic and is not much more than the concept of sequence. One thing happens, then another and another. However, Einstein's theories of time (many of which have apparently been validated through discrepancies in the passing of time based on acceleration and other forces), undermine their simplistic view. I have quite a bit of sympathy towards Open Theism (and know some of the public proponents of Open Theism), but I cannot accept it myself. However I am in occasional dialogue with an Open Theist and have posed the issue of time to him. He does not have an answer.
Close, God created the Universe and “made” (“demonstrated” would be a better choice of word pertaining to God’s Aseity) Himself “able” to interact with the creatures He created in His image and likeness within time, not “stuck” – “able” my friend. Miraculous isn’t it!
:godisgood:
saturneptune
New Member
It is amazing that we have so many theological geniuses that have spent some time in eternity and can go light years beyond the human imagination to describe it. As was proven in another thread, no one can even give a definition or paint a picture of the word "nothing." Do not embarrass yourselves trying to tackle the concept of eternity.