God Eternally Existed Before ANYTHING else was made, correct?

[Yeshua1]

An Open Theist would likely say that God knows everything that there is to know since the future does not yet exist. However, God knows what He intends to do and is actively working to bring about His will.


And Open Theist will likely say that God does indeed know all things "right now" and knows what He intends to do at certain times in the future. The God of the Open Theist is much more interactive than the God of the Calvinists. In both views that people actually hold (not the caricatures that the opposing groups tend to make of each other), God is Lord of Creation and is in control of everything He wants to be in control of. Calvinists tend to think that God maintains tighter control. Open Theists tend to think that God leaves an enormous amount of room for human input while still bringing about His will and purposes. For instance, the Open Theist view of prayer is a little easier to understand since they think that God may indeed change His plans to accommodate our righteous requests. Calvinists tend to see prayer as humankind becoming conformed to God's established will and purposes where our desires have nothing to do with how God will act - our desires are being changed to conform to his will.


I think you can actually make a pretty decent case for Open Theism from the scripture, but in my opinion, the fatal flaw of Open Theism is the issue of the nature of time. The Open Theist view of time (at least from what I have seen) is extremely simplistic and is not much more than the concept of sequence. One thing happens, then another and another. However, Einstein's theories of time (many of which have apparently been validated through discrepancies in the passing of time based on acceleration and other forces), undermine their simplistic view. I have quite a bit of sympathy towards Open Theism (and know some of the public proponents of Open Theism), but I cannot accept it myself. However I am in occasional dialogue with an Open Theist and have posed the issue of time to him. He does not have an answer.

think the main issue se ms to be the concept of what "being in the Present" would mean for God.

Open Theists seem to hold to that meaning God would knwo everything possiblt up to"right now", but that he would learn more as the future actually compes to pass...

Biblical Christianity would take that to mean that God in always living in the "right now", as he sees all things as already happened, no past/future to him , as he already knows everything already as done, as he is outside time, as the Alpha/Omega!

 

[Benjamin]

As was proven in another thread, no one can even give a definition or paint a picture of the word "nothing."

I didn't see the thread but I got a picture in my head of someone starting a thread to argue over nothing. Is that something?

 

[Baptist Believer]

think the main issue se ms to be the concept of what "being in the Present" would mean for God.

Fair enough.

Open Theists seem to hold to that meaning God would knwo everything possiblt up to"right now", but that he would learn more as the future actually compes to pass...

God and His "free will" creatures would all act, so the future could theoretically go many different directions, EXCEPT that God's actions would restrain the full course of history from going against His purposes and will. God would counter, as needed, actions made by "free will" creatures to accomplish His purposes.

Biblical Christianity would take that to mean that God in always living in the "right now", as he sees all things as already happened, no past/future to him , as he already knows everything already as done, as he is outside time, as the Alpha/Omega!

I don't think God is bound by time (whatever it truly is), but He certain does act within time. God is certainly in the "right now" (the eternal present) and knows everything He wants to know about the past (apparently He choses to forget our sins in some cases), and for the Open Theist, He has a very good perspective on the future because He knows all the plans, motivations and actions of His creatures. I happen to think God knows more than the Open Theist believes, but I would not dare speculate just how that works.

I happen to believe that God has provided humankind with extensive free will (of course, within the context of what is possible for us physically, imaginatively, etc.). I also believe that God is sovereign over all of His creation and creatures, although He makes room for us to actively and passively disobey Him for a time. As we purposely align ourselves with the rule of God (the Kingdom of God/the Kingdom of the Heavens) we will find ourselves setting aside our rebellious tendencies and embracing God's way of life. When God finally does away with all competing Kingdoms (the end of the age), those of us who have entered the eternal Kingdom of God will be sustained in our life and reign with Him for eternity.

 

[saturneptune]

I didn't see the thread but I got a picture in my head of someone starting a thread to argue over nothing. Is that something?

The thread asked anyone to paint a picture of the word "nothing." There were examples of being out in deep, dark space. However, there is space and that is something. We went through several examples, but the concept of "nothing" was ever adequately described. One poster tried to describe nothing as what there was before the creation of the universe.

Since we cannot grasp "nothing," what makes us think we can grasp eternity? One poster said it was "a higher dimension where God lives" which is about as close as we can get. Another poster described it as "a place without time or space." In addition to not being able to imagine that with our minds, we are not sure there is no space, just more dimensions than three.

The best illustration that was used, and it is an indirect one, was comparing out present state to a living being is a two dimensional world.

 

[webdog]

Don't some Christians though see Him as bound/restrained by Time and Space, or somehow have Him part of the Universe in some fashion, as He decided to be affected by time and "grow" with Humanity?

Yeah they are called determinists.

 

[webdog]

It is amazing that we have so many theological geniuses that have spent some time in eternity and can go light years beyond the human imagination to describe it. As was proven in another thread, no one can even give a definition or paint a picture of the word "nothing." Do not embarrass yourselves trying to tackle the concept of eternity.

Since the Bible states He has set eternity in our hearts, it only reasons we wonder about and discuss eternity. There is nothing embarrassing about it, and one doesn't need to be a genius to form logical conclusions based on given information.

While our feeble minds cannot 'grasp' eternity, we can certainly understand God being within time, outside of time and existing at all points in time simultaneously...He's God.

 

[quantumfaith]

Close, God created the Universe and “made” (“demonstrated” would be a better choice of word pertaining to God’s Aseity) Himself “able” to interact with the creatures He created in His image and likeness within time, not “stuck” – “able” my friend. Miraculous isn’t it!

:godisgood:

:thumbs:
"Asiety" an attribute often overlooked here in BB land.

 

[Yeshua1]

Fair enough.


God and His "free will" creatures would all act, so the future could theoretically go many different directions, EXCEPT that God's actions would restrain the full course of history from going against His purposes and will. God would counter, as needed, actions made by "free will" creatures to accomplish His purposes.



I don't think God is bound by time (whatever it truly is), but He certain does act within time. God is certainly in the "right now" (the eternal present) and knows everything He wants to know about the past (apparently He choses to forget our sins in some cases), and for the Open Theist, He has a very good perspective on the future because He knows all the plans, motivations and actions of His creatures. I happen to think God knows more than the Open Theist believes, but I would not dare speculate just how that works.

I happen to believe that God has provided humankind with extensive free will (of course, within the context of what is possible for us physically, imaginatively, etc.). I also believe that God is sovereign over all of His creation and creatures, although He makes room for us to actively and passively disobey Him for a time. As we purposely align ourselves with the rule of God (the Kingdom of God/the Kingdom of the Heavens) we will find ourselves setting aside our rebellious tendencies and embracing God's way of life. When God finally does away with all competing Kingdoms (the end of the age), those of us who have entered the eternal Kingdom of God will be sustained in our life and reign with Him for eternity.

god exists outside of His creation , and He can choose to "pop in" at any time, and He has determined what is to come , thru determining events directly, or by having his will done thru third parties to accomplish it..

the bibkle states to us that God knows ALL Things, that he is alpha/omega, so how can He be limited in what and when he knows thinhs?

OT asking God to do to Himself what He cannot do, limit His knowledge and awareness !

 

[Yeshua1]

I didn't see the thread but I got a picture in my head of someone starting a thread to argue over nothing. Is that something?

Guess deciding which version of God fits the biblical model best is nothing to you then?

that we all can make up our own concept/definitions of Him then?

 

[webdog]

god exists outside of His creation , and He can choose to "pop in" at any time...

You have just called out His deity, His omnipresence, to be more precise. That's a low, humanistic view of God's eternal existence.

 

[Baptist Believer]

the bibkle states to us that God knows ALL Things, that he is alpha/omega, so how can He be limited in what and when he knows thinhs?

You are conceiving God as a series of attributes, not a Person. That leads to foolish "unsolvable" questions like, "Could God create a stone so heavy He could not lift it?" First, the question is rather insulting to God since God is a perfectly integrated Person, not attributes, and second, the question is self-contradictory because it presumes an infinite amount of weight and force competing with each other.

God can chose to self-limit for His own purposes. And in regard to the future, an Open Theist believes the future does not exist, so there's nothing to "know" about it.

OT asking God to do to Himself what He cannot do, limit His knowledge and awareness !

God purposely limits His knowledge when He forgets our sins (Isaiah 43:25). Why do you think God cannot limit His knowledge in other ways for His own purposes?

 

[Yeshua1]

You are conceiving God as a series of attributes, not a Person. That leads to foolish "unsolvable" questions like, "Could God create a stone so heavy He could not lift it?" First, the question is rather insulting to God since God is a perfectly integrated Person, not attributes, and second, the question is self-contradictory because it presumes an infinite amount of weight and force competing with each other.

God can chose to self-limit for His own purposes. And in regard to the future, an Open Theist believes the future does not exist, so there's nothing to "know" about it.


God purposely limits His knowledge when He forgets our sins (Isaiah 43:25). Why do you think God cannot limit His knowledge in other ways for His own purposes?

Due to his very nature and attributes though, there are some things God CANNOT do, such as forgetting anything or telling lies or causing someone to sin against their will!

 

[Baptist Believer]

Due to his very nature and attributes though, there are some things God CANNOT do, such as forgetting anything...

It is not that He forgets them, He makes a choice not to remember them. It is not of inadequacy, it is because of His character/nature. The "attributes" of God do not override or conflict with each other, His will, or His character.

I think you need to meditate carefully on the meaning of these passages:

“I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake,
And I will not remember your sins." - Isaiah 43:25

“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.” - Hebrews 8:12

“And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.” - Hebrews 10:17

 

[Yeshua1]

It is not that He forgets them, He makes a choice not to remember them. It is not of inadequacy, it is because of His character/nature. The "attributes" of God do not override or conflict with each other, His will, or His character.

I think you need to meditate carefully on the meaning of these passages:

“I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake,
And I will not remember your sins." - Isaiah 43:25

“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.” - Hebrews 8:12

“And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.” - Hebrews 10:17

God aleways knows my sins, but he sees them thru the Cross, so they are not held against me!

 

[Baptist Believer]

God aleways knows my sins, but he sees them thru the Cross, so they are not held against me!

But that's contradictory to what these verses say. Furthermore, what scripture can you provide that says something to the effect that "God always knows my sins, but he sees them through the cross..."?

I've heard that a lot from the pulpit, but I don't recall seeing that sentiment in scripture.

I'm not trying to be combative here, but I'm sincerely interested to know if you can point me to something that will uphold that view. I've been thinking a lot about these issues lately.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I'm sincerely interested to know if you can point me to something that will uphold that view. I've been thinking a lot about these issues lately.

Romans 3, NASB
24 [Those who believe (v. 22)] being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time ...

Romans 5
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Ephesians 1
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

1 John 1
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Hebrews 13
12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
Revelation 1
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood -​

Certainly a case can be made from these verses that God does indeed see us through the blood of Jesus, given this:

Revelation 7
14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

If not for the washing in the blood, our sins remain. God does see us through the blood of Christ. That can easily be extrapolated from these verses.

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 3, NASB
24 [Those who believe (v. 22)] being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time ...

Romans 5
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Ephesians 1
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

1 John 1
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Hebrews 13
12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
Revelation 1
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood -​

Certainly a case can be made from these verses that God does indeed see us through the blood of Jesus, given this:

Revelation 7
14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

If not for the washing in the blood, our sins remain. God does see us through the blood of Christ. That can easily be extrapolated from these verses.

You could say, I think, that Jesus was able to "forget" stuff, or perhaps better said could chose to not knew things based upon His limitation being in human flesh, bu the Father and the Holy spirit NEVER had that option, as were always as spirit and all knowing!

 

[Baptist Believer]

First, I need to say, thank you for your response!

Romans 3, NASB
24 [Those who believe (v. 22)] being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time ...​

Yes. The atonement of Christ demonstrated the righteousness of God and satisfied God's wrath toward rebellion(sin).

Romans 5
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Yes. We have had the guilt and wrath removed through the shed blood of Christ.

Ephesians 1
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

Yes, we have been bought back from bondage to sin through the atoning blood of Christ.

1 John 1
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Yes, our lives demonstrate that the shed blood of Jesus is continuously effective in removing sin from our lives (although I would be at a loss to know exactly how that works!).

Hebrews 13
12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
Revelation 1
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood -

Yes, we have been set apart and released from our sins by the blood of Jesus.

Certainly a case can be made from these verses that God does indeed see us through the blood of Jesus, given this:

Revelation 7
14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

If not for the washing in the blood, our sins remain.

Yes, in some way the shedding of Christ's blood on the cross has accomplished all of these things.

God does see us through the blood of Christ. That can easily be extrapolated from these verses.

But you didn't provide any verses that says that God NOW "see us through the blood of Christ" instead of not remembering our sin like these verses explicitly state:

“I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake,
And I will not remember your sins." - Isaiah 43:25

“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.” - Hebrews 8:12

“And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.” - Hebrews 10:17

I don't see any contradiction between the verse you quoted (all very good and helpful for this discussion) and the verses I have quoted above. I do see a contradiction between the idea that somehow God still sees our sin through "rose colored glasses" every time He looks upon us. It seems to me that God has dealt with the guilt for our sin issue "once for all" when we become a disciple of Jesus and begin the process of sanctification. We become dead to sin and alive to God at that time. We are crucified with/in Christ and the life we live in the flesh we live by faith in the Son of God. God remembers our sin no more. We are preparing to receive Him as He returns again without reference to sin (Hebrews 9:28). The guilt over our sin is dealt with already (Hebrews 9:26) and the only issue we have with sin at this point is to crucify it (leave it behind) as we are transformed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we won't sin on occasion - especially as we are just beginning our journey of discipleship - but our lives will be characterized more and more by the righteousness, love and character of God. Sin will always be "crouching at the door" and we will have to guard against it (and failing occasionally), but that won't be our lifestyle.

The reason why I think this is a big deal that God "does not remember our sin" is that in discipleship to Jesus, it is easy to get focused on avoiding sin instead of obeying Jesus. We are not called to be sin avoiders (although that is part of the calling), but followers of Christ to announce and expand the Kingdom of God. When we are busy doing the work of God, we will find that sin will become less attractive to us and we will find the strength to say no to temptation. We will become the type of person who hates sin and loves God.

 

[Yeshua1]

If we take the entire context of all those verses that were cited seem to indicate that the truth is that God views us thru the lens of calvary so does remember all our sins,but not as he did when we weres till sinners to Him!

 

[quantumfaith]

First, I need to say, thank you for your response!


Yes. The atonement of Christ demonstrated the righteousness of God and satisfied God's wrath toward rebellion(sin).


Yes. We have had the guilt and wrath removed through the shed blood of Christ.


Yes, we have been bought back from bondage to sin through the atoning blood of Christ.


Yes, our lives demonstrate that the shed blood of Jesus is continuously effective in removing sin from our lives (although I would be at a loss to know exactly how that works!).


Yes, we have been set apart and released from our sins by the blood of Jesus.


Yes, in some way the shedding of Christ's blood on the cross has accomplished all of these things.


But you didn't provide any verses that says that God NOW "see us through the blood of Christ" instead of not remembering our sin like these verses explicitly state:

“I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake,
And I will not remember your sins." - Isaiah 43:25

“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.” - Hebrews 8:12

“And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.” - Hebrews 10:17

I don't see any contradiction between the verse you quoted (all very good and helpful for this discussion) and the verses I have quoted above. I do see a contradiction between the idea that somehow God still sees our sin through "rose colored glasses" every time He looks upon us. It seems to me that God has dealt with the guilt for our sin issue "once for all" when we become a disciple of Jesus and begin the process of sanctification. We become dead to sin and alive to God at that time. We are crucified with/in Christ and the life we live in the flesh we live by faith in the Son of God. God remembers our sin no more. We are preparing to receive Him as He returns again without reference to sin (Hebrews 9:28). The guilt over our sin is dealt with already (Hebrews 9:26) and the only issue we have with sin at this point is to crucify it (leave it behind) as we are transformed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we won't sin on occasion - especially as we are just beginning our journey of discipleship - but our lives will be characterized more and more by the righteousness, love and character of God. Sin will always be "crouching at the door" and we will have to guard against it (and failing occasionally), but that won't be our lifestyle.

The reason why I think this is a big deal that God "does not remember our sin" is that in discipleship to Jesus, it is easy to get focused on avoiding sin instead of obeying Jesus. We are not called to be sin avoiders (although that is part of the calling), but followers of Christ to announce and expand the Kingdom of God. When we are busy doing the work of God, we will find that sin will become less attractive to us and we will find the strength to say no to temptation. We will become the type of person who hates sin and loves God.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: