God expects us to live up to the light we have.

[BobRyan]

How is the "light" you received concerning pork or Sabbath keeping "truth" and the "light" I received concerning pork and Sabbath keeping "truth"

It is based on the Bible - and so it is available to all to see the text of Gen 6, Isaiah 66, Lev 11 etc and to note that "The Word of God can not be broken" John 10:35

Steaver
when we received exact opposite "lights" from God concerning the issues?

Apparently it was not in scripture.

If both cannot be "truth", how does your church (SDA) measure who is following truth?

sola scriptura.

I will jump ahead and assume you will say scripture must back up the "light". But we already established that we BOTH have followed the same steps for receiving the "light". We both studied scripture while praying for God's wisdom without preconceived positions (I know I have).

The RCC would argue that you need a Pope to "break the tie" but we reject that logic.

Our position is that if you had followed valid exegesis of all texts on the subject you too could have come to the right conclusion "sola scriptura" as we did.

So must we conclude that the "light" cannot be proven and it is solely "personal" conviction

Wrong. If such reasoning had validity then JW accept/reject of trinity would be nothing more than "personal conviction" and RCC belief in 'turning bread into God' would be "personal conviction" - hence the RCC argument for a "Pope" using YOUR reasoning above.

Could we conclude that what you believe to be the correct "light" or what I believe to be the correct "light", coupled with scripture study of course, could still be wrong?

Those tossing out man-made tradition and accepting Exegetically sound methods of sola-scriptura doctrinal positions will be correct.

That is how the Lev 11 denying SDA church was confronted with Truth and then submitted to it - so they now ACCEPT Lev 11, Is 66, Gen 6 and 7 etc.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Steaver,

Are you wanting me to explain to you the role of Ellen White in our Church? Im not sure but it seems that way.

I would be absolutely happy to do that for you except that honestly, in that other recent thread I tried to tell you some things but you just kept on acting as if I hadnt said them, which makes it too difficult to have a conversation with you, it is frustrating.

Add to that the fact that if I sincerely just tried to explain the role of Ellen White to us as it relates to the Scriptures and our understanding of it, there would be people coming in this thread jumping all over whatever I say, twisting my words, accusing her of being a "false prophet", and it would turn into a virtual Circus.

I just honestly think that I am not feeling up to that and cant see the good it would do.

It would do a whole lot of good if you were genuinely interested in gaining an understanding of it and if others wouldnt come here and turn it into a Zoo.

But just the thing where you and others might say I said things that I didnt really say, etc. and so forth, I just dont that I would want to go down that road.

Claudia

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver said --
I would like to take up this issue with Claudia and Bob(and anyone else who cares). I have deliberated with SDA's for about 8 years now and what Claudia has said is what I have heard from many of them. That is that only those who have been "shown the light" are required to obey the light.

I don't see how that is a request aksing for "information about ellen white" Claudia. How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[Claudia_T]

I just figured thats what he was really getting at.

 

[steaver]

Bob, you have not made any connection between "light" and "scripture". In fact you seem to give all credit to "sola scripture" as though this "light" thing is secondary. Claudia states many times that those who have not received "light" concerning pork eating, or anything else, is not held accountable. This seems to put "light" as the final authority over the scriptures because we all have the scriptures to study and most of us have studied these issues in depth and have come to opposite conclusions as you have.

Claudia, I think you mean well here in these discussions, but you really don't seem to be able to defend your positions when challenged. It appears to me that you are an SDA who has been taught to be an SDA rather than one who has solid arguments to back up what you believe.

I have a brother who believes that salvation of your soul is something you must earn and is a seperate thing from the salvation of your spirit which is a gift from God through faith. He believes this because a wayward preacher (x-preacher now)filled his head with this nonsense. When asked to explain this from scripture, he can't! I tried to sit down with him and go over it but he won't unless his preacher (also his friend) is there to help explain it to me because he can't.

Go back and read my questions if you wish to answer them. They are not about Ellen, they are about why you believe what you believe. If that includes Ellen then so say.

God Bless! :wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you have not made any connection between "light" and "scripture". In fact you seem to give all credit to "sola scripture" as though this "light" thing is secondary. Claudia states many times that those who have not received "light" concerning pork eating, or anything else, is not held accountable. This seems to put "light" as the final authority over the scriptures

In John 16 Christ said "I have many more things to tell you but you can not receive them now"

He also states that the Spirit is given as the "Spirit of truth" and He GUIDES us into ALL truth. The Spirit is as much the author of scripture as He is the one who guides us into all truth. We are relying on one and the same member of the trinity when we READ scripture and also pray to God the Holy Spirit to REVEAL truth to us.

It is not the case that ALL humanity is open to the SAME truth when they read Rom 2:11-13 -- some are down right opposed to what it says - while others embrace it.

There is no way to deny this.

Also your "most of us do not agree with you" argument is the same one the Jewish leaders had to use against the Apostles. It is not a form of Bible Exegesis. But be that as it may - this is WHY I often appeal to NON-SDA Bible commentators showing that EVEN THEY agree with key points being denied here by those who are either opposed to Christ's Sabbth or Lev 11 or some other portion of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Bob, you have not made any connection between "light" and "scripture". In fact you seem to give all credit to "sola scripture" as though this "light" thing is secondary. Claudia states many times that those who have not received "light" concerning pork eating, or anything else, is not held accountable. This seems to put "light" as the final authority over the scriptures because we all have the scriptures to study and most of us have studied these issues in depth and have come to opposite conclusions as you have.

Claudia, I think you mean well here in these discussions, but you really don't seem to be able to defend your positions when challenged. It appears to me that you are an SDA who has been taught to be an SDA rather than one who has solid arguments to back up what you believe.

I have a brother who believes that salvation of your soul is something you must earn and is a seperate thing from the salvation of your spirit which is a gift from God through faith. He believes this because a wayward preacher (x-preacher now)filled his head with this nonsense. When asked to explain this from scripture, he can't! I tried to sit down with him and go over it but he won't unless his preacher (also his friend) is there to help explain it to me because he can't.

Go back and read my questions if you wish to answer them. They are not about Ellen, they are about why you believe what you believe. If that includes Ellen then so say.

God Bless! :wavey:

THAT is the very reason I avoid talking to you, I dont even really know what you are asking yet you are already accusing me of things... it just makes it difficult to want to have a conversation with you, steaver.

I thought I already answered your questions anyway. I dont see what you are wanting to know.

But I mean, you are saying I dont know how to defend my positions, I dont even know what it is you are asking me to defend LOL! seriously.

then you accuse me of being an SDA who has just been taught to believe something...

thats what I mean, I dont even have to SAY anything and you are already doing this to me.

so I dont even want to be involved in this.. sorry.

 

[steaver]

so I dont even want to be involved in this.. sorry.

very well................

:wavey:

 

[Claudia_T]

Helen,

I understand where you are coming from but you dont really know that I am concentrating on works.

Its more like that the people on here, or at least some of them that normally post about grace... if you were to tell them they didnt care about works they'd tell you that was wrong.

I think that whatever people view as that others dont realize they need to do... well thats what they emphasize because they dont think others realize they need to do it.

I know really really well about the fact that we need to keep our eyes on Christ...

Claudia

Claudia, legalism means believing that trying to obey the law will save you or help you maintain your salvation. Both are wrong.

The person who is a born again Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit -- Romans 8. He is faithful to complete the work He begins in us -- Philippians 1. We still have a struggle regarding the temptations we have to deal with, but there is no temptation given to man that God has not given us also a way out of. That's also Bible.

You are concentrating on works. If you were to focus instead on the Lord Himself and follow Him, you would find He does not lead you into disobeying Him at any time! Therefore you will be following the law.

The difference between legalism and grace is that the legalist pays attention to the law and the person who is aware of God's incredible grace pays attention to HIM, our Shepherd and Redeemer.

We were called sheep in the Bible. Sheep are pretty stupid animals, actually (I highly recommend Keller's "A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23"). Most sheep look to the Shepherd for guidance, and he will not guide them to break down fences that He Himself has erected for their own safety!

There are sheep, however, who are 'fence crawlers', always looking for a way out. What sort of sheep you are reflects in your relationship with the Shepherd.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You think it possible one might refuse 'further light', then use his ignorance for an excuse that he walks not according to the greater light?

 

[steaver]

It is not the case that ALL humanity is open to the SAME truth when they read Rom 2:11-13 -- some are down right opposed to what it says - while others embrace it.

There is no way to deny this.

First part of this statement implies that the Holy Spirit does NOT reveal truth to ALL of humanity. Is this correct? If so, one cannot oppose what one has not been allowed to see by God. However, please stick with Christians only, those who have already been born of God. We know that God has blinded some concerning salvation, it is not for us to know who, but I am dealing with those whom God has already given the Holy Spirit.

This leaves the second part of your statement disconnected from the first. The second part you imply that some "oppose" what it says while others "embrace" it. You have not made a connection between the giving of light with the reading of the scripture FOR CHRISTIANS.

Are you saying that those who disagree with your position has either 1) Chose to oppose it even though the Holy Spirit has given them light on the reading? Or 2) Simply disagree with your position because the Holy Spirit has NOT given them light on the reading of the scripture?

I am trying my best to explain my questions and inquiries. Maybe if I give an example...

without outlining all of the many scriptures dealing with the subject of let's say Sabbath keeping, let's assume that you and I have put every passage of scripture onto the board in the attempt to deliberate and reach a correct conclusion about the issue. We both pray as we study each passage. After all passages are studied and prayed over you conclude that Sabbath keeping is what God wants and I conclude that it is not.

Now, how do you see my position? 1) I have read and received light from God but I am stubbornly rejecting it. 2) I have read and studied but I have not been given any light from God on this issue else I would see it as you do.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

You think it possible one might refuse 'further light', then use his ignorance for an excuse that he walks not according to the greater light?

Possibly, but the question is not about rejecting light but just how "light" is established as truth.

God Bless!

 

[Claudia_T]

well there could be a third option or reason you dont see the light about the Sabbath, it could just be cause you're a dumbhead

Steaver, Im totally just kidding with you :laugh:

 

[Claudia_T]

Seriously though, I think another yet unstated reason people dont get the light is because once you distort certain key points in the Scriptures then you have to distort others as well to make everything seem bearable...

You start out with one false premise then have to bend everything else to that...

 

[Claudia_T]

Okay Im going to tell you the REAL reason I think people dont receive the light...


"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth the field."

The man who found the treasure was ready to part with all that he had. He was ready to labor untiringly. He counted no sacrifice too dear ro gain these treasures.

We cannot be wise in our own estimation.

Christ gave the Jewish people plenty of evidence that He was the Messiah; but His teaching called for a decided change in their lives. They realized if they received Christ, they would have to give up their cherished traditions, along with their ungodly practices. They had to sacrifice to receive the truth. Therefore they would not admit the most conclusive evidence that God could give to establish faith in Christ.

"Among the chief rulers also many believed on Him," we read; "but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue." John 12:42. They were convinced Jesus to be the Son of God; but it would interrupt their cherished plans.

Others just believe what their "church fathers" tell them without being willing to search for the truth themselves.

Much of the problem with searching the scriptures has to do with a willingness to obey God. They dont want to obey God's commandments. The Scriptures are not to be adapted to meet the prejudice and jealousy of men. Only those who are humbly seeking for a knowledge of the truth that they may obey it are going to find it.

You have to lay aside your preconceived opinions, all your previously held ideas, at the door of investigation. Dont just try to vindicate your own opinions. Search in order to learn what the Lord says. If conviction comes as you search, if you see that your cherished opinions are not in harmony with the truth, do not misinterpret the truth in order to suit your own belief, but accept the light given.

"If thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; if thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God." Prov. 2:3-5.

 

[steaver]

Seriously though, I think another yet unstated reason people dont get the light is because once you distort certain key points in the Scriptures then you have to distort others as well to make everything seem bearable...

You start out with one false premise then have to bend everything else to that...

thought you didn't want to discuss it? :BangHead:

however, we already established that these two positions had already started with no premise. And we are not talking about scripture distortion. Two Christians, niether could care less about taking sides, want to sit down, pray for "light", study God's word, and then decide a position which they believe is from God's light. Each come up with a different answer. What happened?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Search in order to learn what the Lord says. If conviction comes as you search, if you see that your cherished opinions are not in harmony with the truth, do not misinterpret the truth in order to suit your own belief, but accept the light given. Open mind and heart that you may behold wondrous things out of God's word.

You assume that this person has "cherished opiniions". I assure you I had NONE when I took on the task of studying Sabbath keeping, pork eating, OSAS, and I believe God gave me light that the positions I have taken on these issues are correct!

So how is this different than what you have done to come to the positions you have?

God Bless!

 

[Claudia_T]

You assume that this person has "cherished opiniions". I assure you I had NONE when I took on the task of studying Sabbath keeping, pork eating, OSAS, and I believe God gave me light that the positions I have taken on these issues are correct!

So how is this different than what you have done to come to the positions you have?

God Bless!

If someone says "always make sure to turn the stove off before going to the store" ...that doesnt mean you accusing anyone of having the stove on. You are just making a statement,

 

[Claudia_T]

well as far as I can see, one you have this Once Saved Always Saved position it pretty much ruins everything else doctrinally... at least thats what Im seeing. Why worry about doing ANYTHING?

which came first? did you already accept this OSAS position then start studying about the Sabbath afterwards?

 

[steaver]

well as far as I can see, one you have this Once Saved Always Saved position it pretty much ruins everything else doctrinally... at least thats what Im seeing. Why worry about doing ANYTHING?

which came first? did you already accept this OSAS position then start studying about the Sabbath afterwards?

This is totally off topic. This topic is not about OSAS or any other specific position. It is about receiving "light". With that said though, you are correct that if one has not yet received light that OSAS is truth then one could likely error with Sabbath keeping and pork eating and such things, if indeed these things are said to point to a loss of salvation or said to effect salvation in some manner.

I have already prayed, studied and received light from God that OSAS is Truth. And as I stiudied and prayed about pork and Sabbath keeping I received further light that these things had nothing to do with salvation. I also received light that EGW and Joe Smith were false prophets just pushing their own agendas and are basically just popes for different religious movements. So God has been very busy with enlightening me as I seek Him and study His Word. Praise Him! :thumbs:

God Bless!