God is in Control?

"Is God in control of all things?"

Yes.

"Or is there anything outside of His control?"

No.

 

Agree with the Pastor from MO

 

your love for Him and your obedience to Him is outside His control.

 

Scripture please?

 

God controls everything. He controls me when I sin, He controlled Hitler when he gave the orders and He controlled all of the SS when they gassed 6 million Jews. God controls all sin and therefore I have no responsibility. Thanks for clearing that up.

OK, enough of my smart-alec answer. Until someone can explain How God can be sovereign AND man can have free will, this argument will continue. I do not believe it is possible to maintain that God is sovereign WITHOUT free will and I do not believe it is possible to explain free will without sovereignty. I accept that both are true because the Bible teaches both. I do not axccept that both are true because it is logical. The Bible is my standard, not logic.

 

Art,

I noticed there was no scripture offered in your sarcastic answer. Seems a bit non-responsive to me.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joe,

I was, indeed, being sarcastic (I like to think of it as facecious) in the first paragraph. I even said so in the beginning of the second paragraph just in case someone didn't catch it. I offered no scripture because there isn't any for such a nonsensical statement. But, this is the end result that I have seen being stated by those who take the Sovereignty concept to its uttermost reaches.

Sovereignty
Of God, his absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure (Dan_4:25, Dan_4:35; Rom_9:15-23; 1Ti_6:15; Rev_4:11).

Free Will
Of Man, His God given ability to choose to server God or not. (Deu 30:19; Jos 24:15; 1 John 3:23; Joh 14:11)

I am maintaining that both are true and that any contradiction is all in our misunderstanding what God says.

 

You're correct. There isn't any.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Doesn't God exist outside of spacetime. that means He is not bound by limitations in our universe, like seemingly mutually exclusive concepts, or the Law of causality (everything that has a biginning has a cause).

i think i have an example of how a thing can be predetermined and also freely chose. no please don't think i am saying this is how it is done, i think this is just a very simple (for i am very simple) example of how something can be both,

simply put, if you write down that on such and such a date you will throw a ball and so and so a person will catch it. this is a very simplistic form of predestination, provided you plan well enough to be with that person on that date. then on the appointed date (do not show them the letter, God does not show us his plans, so for this exercize don't reveal to the other person your plans), make sure you have that paper with the predetermined plan on it, toss the person the ball in such a way as they are sure to catch it. Now when i used this example on a person in church i mailed the paper to my self to show i had planned it earlier that the day.

Now if you think about it what did the person do that made him responcible for catching the ball, just catching the ball (as he had no knowledge of the plan). and even further, who actually had all the power of whether or not the person caught the ball....you did. you could have thrown the ball in the wrong direction, or too short, or long. as a matter of fact could the other person have caught the ball without you? no. you actually forced the person to catch the ball, they had no real choice( even though they did, they could have let it drop, but you took care of that too, by throwing it in such a way as to ensure the catch. You had all the choices, you didn't even have to throw him/her the ball.

i think if you think and pray about it (which is what i did for 5+ years), it might make sense.


i am not saying this is how God did it, but He could have, He knows everything, which requires Him to be everywhere (else how can he know whats going on where he's not), and to be everywhere He has to have unlimited, and unrestrained power, and if he has unlimited and unrestrained power He would have to know everything to ensure the safe use of that power.

anyway i digress

thankyou and God Bless

 

Scripture please? </font>[/QUOTE]Scripture that says otherwise? When you have done the wrong thing, did you not have a choice?

 

Still no scripture? Artimaeus is correct. There isn't any.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Scripture please? </font>[/QUOTE]Scripture that says otherwise? When you have done the wrong thing, did you not have a choice? </font>[/QUOTE]If you don't have any Scripture, just say so...it looks a little better than evading the question.

 

Joshua 24:14-15 off the top of my head

 

How does this fit your original answer? That is a call of God to serve the Lord with all faithfulness. How does that support that our love and obedience is outside of His control?

Let me be a little more specific for you, I would like to see a verse that shares with us that our obedience and love are outside of His control.

 

Boy, I guess you got me on that one. I can't think of a verse that says it exactly the way you want it said. You'll have to forgive me for thinking that God gave us enough common sense to realize that when he tells us to choose we actually have a choice. When I give you a choice, I relinquish control over what you decide. If I exercise control over your choice then it really isn't a choice, is it?

Not a dodge or duck, it's a challenge. Show me scripture that says you don't control wether to love and obey God.

 

The burden of proof is not on me, but on you for making the statement you did. You can't show Scripture to support your statement. That is clear for all to see. You are welcome to share your opinion, but do not try to pretend you have Scripture to back it up. Now if you do, please share...

 

Alreeady shared. If you can't understand it, read it again. Choose means you have a choice. If that's wrong, prove it

 

How does this fit your original answer? That is a call of God to serve the Lord with all faithfulness. How does that support that our love and obedience is outside of His control?

Let me be a little more specific for you, I would like to see a verse that shares with us that our obedience and love are outside of His control. </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe you missed this the first time around. That Scripture does not say anything about your love and obedience not being under His control.

It is talking about serving the Lord with complete faithfulness.