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God's glory his motive
- Thread starter Luke2427
- Start date
menageriekeeper
Active Member
With scripture of course:
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
A god that is only concerned with himself, wouldn't have done the above. Thats an extremely self centered god you have described (or rather J. Edwards has described). Scripture describes the God I follow much more genrously than the OP.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
A god that is only concerned with himself, wouldn't have done the above. Thats an extremely self centered god you have described (or rather J. Edwards has described). Scripture describes the God I follow much more genrously than the OP.
Also, God is love. That is not up for debate. His Word tells us exactly what love is in 1 Corinthians 13.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I am not able to love the world enough to give my son to be tortured and murdered for the sake of a bunch of sinners because I am self centered even though I work to overcome it.
But God is love and His concern was/is with those he created. Had He loved Himself more, He would not have sent His Son to die for us.
Of course God is God centered, there is nothing greater than God to center your entire attention and honor. If God was not God centered, it would be sin. Some look at it as though he is a mere human. If he were, it would be selfish because there is something greater than man... that being God. Yet, there is nothing greater than God so for God to not be God centered would be to be less than God.
The Romans 5 is not really an issue. The reason God died is to bring honor to himself.
The reason God is so God centered is plain... there is nothing greater than Him.
The Romans 5 is not really an issue. The reason God died is to bring honor to himself.
The reason God is so God centered is plain... there is nothing greater than Him.
quantumfaith
Active Member
No, the reason God died was to redeem man.....because He loved (loves) man.
Jarthur001
Active Member
PLEASE SEE VIDEO LINK BELOW...
I just posted this link on another thread. When I 1st saw this video a few years ago, it took me to the highest level I have ever known, into the glory of God. I felt like a small man, in front of a great ...a man who knows what God's glory is. I'm not sure I will ever be as to this level, which is to my shame.
http://www.farese.com/video2.htm
I just posted this link on another thread. When I 1st saw this video a few years ago, it took me to the highest level I have ever known, into the glory of God. I felt like a small man, in front of a great ...a man who knows what God's glory is. I'm not sure I will ever be as to this level, which is to my shame.
http://www.farese.com/video2.htm
And the reason he loves man is because He loves Himself.
No one doubted that. Yet, you are not showing how loving us and focused on His own glory are mutually exclusive. In fact, I contend that His love further brings Glory to God. Yes, Jesus died because He loved us, but He also died to glorify God (John 17). Christ was to be uplifted and glorified and Christ was to Glorify the Father... and it was because he loved us, which His love will also bring glory to Him. They are not diametrically opposed.
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Can you provide scripture that says God loves man because He loves Himself?
So you will agree they are mutually inclusive, and not one derived from the other (as the OP tries to show)?
Amy,
If you read John 17, Jesus gives us insight into God in which we see that the ultimate purpose of Jesus was to glorify God... and God was going to glorify Jesus.. and the result is that we are saved. This entire prayer helped me see that my salvation is much more than about me... it was about God the Father loving Jesus and Jesus loving God the Father. I just happen to be a small part of this wonderful expression. In my opinion, this is one of the most beautiful picture of Trinitarian Love in the entire Bible.
That's a good answer. WE are not the motivators of God's love- God is. God did not love us because he 'had to or there was no choice'. God loves us because He IS love and that brings Him more glory.
Edited to add- Just as God hating those who hate Him brings Him glory- Exodus 20:4-6
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."
What is God jealous about? His glory!
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quantumfaith
Active Member
I am not attempting to show them "mutually exclusive". I regret if that message was communicated.
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Neither were we nor was John Piper. The issue, then, was:
For that, I think we can say this all can happen as Piper described and God still love people. They are not mutually exclusive. The question should be, is God totally God-centered? I say, "Yes." God is completely God centered.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
If you read John 17, Jesus gives us insight into God in which we see that the ultimate purpose of Jesus was to glorify God... you leave out the contest that Christ said he "glorified thee on the earth", which is entirely different than than the glory that God and Christ together had enjoyed in heaven "before the world was". (vs 1-5) So, while you make the claim that the sole purpose of Jesus was to glorify God on earth, you cannot make the claim that the ultimate purpose of God in creation was self centered glory.
and God was going to glorify Jesus.. and the result is that we are saved. This entire prayer helped me see that my salvation is much more than about me... it was about God the Father loving Jesus and Jesus loving God the Father. I just happen to be a small part of this wonderful expression. In my opinion, this is one of the most beautiful picture of Trinitarian Love in the entire Bible. That man is an expression of love between father and son is much better than the idea that God is somehow ultimately only concerned with His own glory. (like some sort of heavenly Paris Hilton) The idea in the OP makes God shallow and spoiled, not holy, righteous and the embodiment of love.
Oh good grief! Enough characters to post means outside the quote!
Yes, I think I can make the case that God's ultimate goal was His own Glory. The understanding begins in what is traditionally called by Theologians the Eternal Covenant between God and man, where the covenant is made for the uplifting and Glory of all in the Trinity... and in John 17 chapter in verse 5 seems to give us insight into that glory. It talks about the Glory they had before the foundations of the world and this glory they shared. Even before the foundations of the world, the inner-Trinitarian glory was what they relished the most.
You said that I cannot make the claim that the sole purpose of God in creation is His Glory. Romans 8:19 shows that creation's purpose was to see the coming and glory of God (we were created to see His Glory). Isaiah 43:7 shows that God "created for [his] glory."
I have no problem with this because if God is not all about His glory... what would He be all about? Me? If it were me (or all humanity) then we would be sorta worshipped... That is not right. No, it is all about God... All for His glory and only for His glory.
BTW, I would recommend reading all of Piper (beginning with Desiring God) to get a better understanding of Piper and to actually hear his side of the argument.
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GBC Pastor
New Member
I would argue against any quote that stipulates God "must" do anything in order to be God. If God of His own choosing chose as His motive for mankind's creation to bring into being people who would of their own free will choose to be in fellowship and relationship with Him (which I believe is the expressed motive of God for man in Scripture) then how does that make Him any less God?