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God's Hardening of Israel refuted

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, May 12, 2003.

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  1. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    John 7:40  Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
    41   Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? 42   Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
    43   So there was a division among the people because of him.
    44  And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him.
    45  ¶Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
    46  The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.
    47  Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?
    48  Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?
    49  But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

    [emphasis mine]

    Evidently, the hardening of Israel was not resulted from a lack of knowing Scripture, but a misapplication of Scripture: Remember Christ's words in John 5.39-41?

    John 5:39  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
    40  And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
    41  I receive not honour from men.


    Bro. Dallas Eaton

    [ May 12, 2003, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
    #1 Frogman, May 12, 2003
  2. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Harden the government and you harden the people!
     
    #2 Yelsew, May 12, 2003
  3. William C

    William C New Member

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    Dallas,

    I honestly don't know what point you are trying to disprove here, nor do I know what point your trying to make. You wrote:

    I've never said this. I believe Israel did know scripture and I believe they even understood it and for the most part rebelled against it thus becoming hardened in their ways.
     
    #3 William C, May 13, 2003
  4. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Thus ending the claim that God hardened them, if they understood it then they 'for the most part rebelled against it'

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #4 Frogman, May 13, 2003
  5. William C

    William C New Member

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    What?!? I'm not understanding your reasoning here Dallas. I have always said that Israel rebelled causing them to become self hardened or calloused--this is seen throughout the scripture. God's judicial hardening is a temporary unchanging condition that God uses to accomplish a specific purpose.

    People who are hardened by God deserve to be hardened because they have continually rejected God, who they clearly saw and understood making them without excuse for their behavior.

    Do a short word study on "hardening" and you will see the distinction between "self hardening" and "judicial hardening."
     
    #5 William C, May 13, 2003
  6. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    G4645
    σκληρύνω
    sklērunō
    sklay-roo'-no
    From G4642; to indurate, that is, (figuratively) render stubborn: - harden.
    G4642
    σκληρός
    sklēros
    sklay-ros'
    From the base of G4628; dry, that is, hard or tough (figuratively harsh, severe): - fierce, hard.

    G4628
    σκέλος
    skelos
    skel'-os
    Apparently from σκέλλω skellō (to parch; through the idea of leanness); the leg (as lank): - leg.


    This beginning with the Greek; found at Hebrews 3.8; 15 & 4.7

    28  But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
    29  For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
    30  Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
    31   For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

    This does shed some light on the passage I have highlighted above.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
    #6 Frogman, May 13, 2003
  7. William C

    William C New Member

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    What is your point as related to our discussion? :confused:
     
    #7 William C, May 13, 2003
  8. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    What direction is your 'short' word study in? Does it follow the Hebrew for hardening, the Greek, or is it both, thus drawing of the Hebrew and the Greek?

    Which side of the languages (Heb. or Greek) do we find the 'judicial' hardening?

    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
    #8 Frogman, May 13, 2003
  9. William C

    William C New Member

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    Both.

    Self Hardening: Matt. 19:7-8; Mark 10:4-5; Dan. 5:20; Eph. 4:18; Heb. 3:12,15; Ex. 9:34-35; 2 Chron. 36:13; Zech 7:12

    Judical Hardening (from God): Exod. 9:3; 9:12; Deut. 2:30; Josh 11:19-20; Romans 9:18-21; John 12:37-41

    Both are clearly taught in scripture. Apparently some people are so irremediable in their rebellion against God that God enters into the hardening process that was begun by sin so that he can accomplish his purposes in spite of, and yet in and through, that hardness. It is God's prerogative, as God, to do this as Romans 9:18-21 addresses. That they were morally responsible for their condition is a theological given, and we are warned not to harden our hearts as they did, a command that would make no sense if hardening were simply God's act (1 Sam. 6:6)

    Israel hardening as a nation represents a special set of circumstances. It paved a way to a ministry to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28) and was not intended by God to be final (Romans 11:25-27) therefore, to apply it's teaching to objections of Total Depravities complete condemnation of the "non-elect" is completely unfounded. (Ref: Elwell)
     
    #9 William C, May 13, 2003
  10. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Would you say that Jonah experienced this 'hardening' in his anger expressed because God was merciful to the Gentile Ninevites?

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
    #10 Frogman, May 13, 2003
  11. William C

    William C New Member

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    I hadn't thought of it that way before. Maybe, why do you think that relates to hardening in these other verses?
     
    #11 William C, May 14, 2003
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Luke 7 - "They Rejected God's Purpose for them" by not being baptized in John's Baptism.

    Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem! How I WANTED to save your children...but YOU would not"

    God did not make Israel do anything wrong - they chose it in spite of His efforts to reach them.

    As Christ said in Luke 7 "We played the flute and you would not dance, we sang a dirge and you would not mourn" Christ said this about the contrast between John's ministry and His and the fact that Israel rejected both.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, May 14, 2003
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