Gods Law - Honor it? Avoid it? Dump it?

[BobRyan]

Here is the latest from CT on ways to fracture support and repudiation of God's Law at the national level

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/008/20.26.html

However given some posts here saying that it is the worst thing ever - are they failing to trash the Law of God "properly"??

On the other hand - there are posts here saying that we SHOULD honor God's Law. So for those posters -- are they failing to show the proper honor due to God's Law "at a public level".

Obviously "public policy" is not an individual salvific "relationship" with our Creator, Savior and Law Giver God. But if He has any interest at all in seeing HIS law honored at a national or public level - BEYOND what is done individually - then what is it?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Helen]

Bob, the courts and people are going to vascillate and do what they like at different times. We can't do anything about that, really.

What we can do is live our own lives with the Holy Spirit in us. We will be keeping the law that way without even thinking about it, and that sort of life will certainly attract questions from others. And those questions we are commanded to answer.

It has always been a personal thing. I'm sorry for Kentucky, happy for Texas in this regard, but surprised by neither. I'm not sure that anyone is going to change their lives because of either ruling.

 

[BobRyan]

Possibly not. My question is whether God has any interest at all in public/national views about His Law.

If a nation reaches a certain point in denying the rule and authority of God - (Like say... the Roman Empire, Babylon, the Amorites in Canaan etc) does it "cross a line" of probation?

Does God call Christians to be silent on the subject of the national disregard of God or His Law as "policy"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TorahKeeper]

God's Law is forever, God said in Mal 3:6 I am the LORD thy God and I change not" Also in Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Also, why would you not want to obey the very words spoken by God Himself? Seems to me that if you obey what the creator said then how could you go wrong??

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Here is the latest from CT on ways to fracture support and repudiation of God's Law at the national level

The article (which is a commentary) in CT is false in one aslect. The commentary says "Everyone knows the Supreme Court ruled that one kind of Ten Commandments display on government property is unconstitutional, but that another kind is acceptable. But no one—including the Supreme Court itself—seems to be able to explain why.". That's completely false. The justices made a clear distinction in the rulings that if the display is primarily religious in nature, then it is forbidden. If it primarily of another purpose, such as historical or societal, then it is permissible. They also ruled that the "simple existence" of religious significane is not enough to ban a display. That's pretty clear to me. Apparantly the author of the commentary has a problem with clarity.

 

[Claudia_T]

One thing that bothers me is how so many Christians seem to act as if it is "deeply disturbing" to them that these "symbols of Christianity" are being taken down. Yet in reality they have no respect for the Law of God at all.

Fir instance, I used to go to a particular Christian Chat where one guy kept putting me down for my advocating the Ten Commandments. He claimed all we have to do is "believe" and we are saved. Yet when these stories about the Ten Commandment Monuments came out he would say how "so upset" he was that this public symbol of Christianity was being taken down.

He got REALLY mad at me for pointing out that he didnt seem to care at all or give honor to the Ten Commandments in practical life.

I just think it's a little stupid and hypocritical that so many seem to feel this way and will make such a huge deal about the Law of God being on display publically and then removed from sight, yet they continually put down the Ten Commandment Law and claim that it no longer needs to be kept. Why do they care so much about the Ten Commandments all of a sudden?

It just seems like thats all they are to them, is a "symbol" of something. And I dont see what difference it should make to them. It almost seems as if the more a person cares about truth outwardly, the less they care about it inwardly. And the more seem to want to push their beliefs on others, forcing them to do what they think is right.

Let's put it this way... it seems that those who would claim that the Ten Commandments were "done away with" at the cross... are the very ones who seem to want to stir up the most controversy at their outwardly and publically being set aside. Which makes me wonder what is going to happen in the future. I have no trouble picturing them a claiming sort of "outward" respect for the Ten Commandments, but at the same time having the audacity to change, or at least think they can change the Commandments (the Sabbath being the example).

Those who advocate the change of God's Law and the keeping of the Sunday Sabbath are going to be the very ones who try to force the keeping of the commandments upon everyone else. Even when they themselves dont really even keep them.

It's just an interesting development in my opinion. And a disturbing one. I can see the Sunday Laws coming, definitely.

Okay let me explain it this way, this guy I was talking about in the chat room (a voice chat) would mercilessly harass me because I advocated the keeping of the Ten Commandment Law. Then when he reads about this push to take down the Ten Commandment monument he gets on the voice chat and tells everyone how "he was almost in tears" because of it... etc and so forth. And when I pointed out it seemed a tad bit hypocritical of him... boy then he REALLY got angry with me. And the thing is, lots of Christians there felt the same way, it was actually very weird and almost scary.

And then I realized if the Sunday Laws are to happen, which I know that they will, Christians are going to have to develop at least an outward sudden respect for the Ten Commandments... or else why push the Sunday Law? And its funny that those who truly have the least respect for the Law of God are the very ones who are going to try to force their ideas of Christianity upon everyone else, under penalty of the (Government) Law.


Claudia

[ August 03, 2005, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

[mioque]

Why have all those 10 commandments monuments been put up in government buildings in the first place?
Seriously.
During the first half of the xxth century church attendence in the Netherlands was higher than in the US (than it collapsed swiftly and completely), but no 10 commandment monuments were put on display overhere during that period. As far as I know no other modern western country on earth outside of Italy (which has laws mandating that crucifixes must be prominently displayed in all governmentbuildings) has had a similar tradition of putting up religious displays in and around government facilities.

 

[rsr]

John, I don't think the decisions are all that definitive; both were 5-4 votes, meaning they both turned on Breyer's reasoning.

As Scalia said in the Kentucky case:

"Today's opinion forthrightly (or actually, somewhat less than forthrightly) admits that it does not rest upon consistently applied principle. In a revealing footnote, ante, at 11, n. 10, the Court acknowledges that the 'Establishment Clause doctrine' it purports to be applying llacks the comfort of categorical absolutes.' What the Court means by this lovely euphemism is that sometimes the Court chooses to decide cases on the principle that government cannot favor religion, and sometimes it does not."

mioque:

Many, many of the displays date back to the Cold War, when "under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by rsr:
John, I don't think the decisions are all that definitive; both were 5-4 votes...

A great many SCOTUS decisions in the past have been split votes. They're no less the law of the land than unanimous SCOTUS decisions.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by mioque:
Why have all those 10 commandments monuments been put up in government buildings in the first place?
Seriously.

I guess you had to be there.

Our surpreme court has the Ten commandment symbols placed all over the outside of the building, ON the doors to the courtoom and then right ABOVE the chairs of the justices as they sit and hear cases. So "we were saying something" about this a long time ago.

Our government is mandated to PAY to have a Christian pastor pray at the beginning of each session of congress.

In the hall way between the house and the senate is a large stair well with a huge painting depicting the framing of the constitution. Foremost in the painting is a section where the Bible is being studied and Matthew chapter 5 is being examined.

In the Senate chamber high on the walls are frescos of all the famous law makers of ancient history. But in the CENTER with a full face view is Moses. And the argument of the designers was that this is because Moses did not MAKE Law - he was GIVEN the Law.

Our country -- because it started so late and came out of a strong Christian environment - has had a very strong foundational emphasis on Christian principles.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TexasSky]

Amen Bob -

 

[mioque]

"Our surpreme court has the Ten commandment symbols placed all over the outside of the building, ON the doors to the courtoom and then right ABOVE the chairs of the justices as they sit and hear cases. So "we were saying something" about this a long time ago."
"
You refer here to the the Supreme Court Building that was build in the 1930's?
http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/wash/dc78.htm

"In the hall way between the house and the senate is a large stair well with a huge painting depicting the framing of the constitution. Foremost in the painting is a section where the Bible is being studied and Matthew chapter 5 is being examined."
"
Is that the painting by howard Christy discussed in the following link?
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/convention/christy-about.html
That's also a product of the 1930's.

Both seem to be relatively recent phenomena.

Couldn't find anything to date those frescoes in the senate chamber.

 

[rsr]

Originally posted by Johnv:
A great many SCOTUS decisions in the past have been split votes. They're no less the law of the land than unanimous SCOTUS decisions.

I didn't say they weren't authoritative; however, the fact that one justice essentially decided two similar cases two different ways gives me pause.

 

[rsr]

BobRyan said:

"Our government is mandated to PAY to have a Christian pastor pray at the beginning of each session of congress."

Yes, and it should never have been permitted, as Madison argued.

 

[mioque]

Prayer at the beginning of each session of a parliament is/was rather common the world over. Hiring somebody to be the prayerleader is a bit more unusual.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by rsr:
the fact that one justice essentially decided two similar cases two different ways gives me pause.

On the contrary. It shows that he was looking strictly at the merits of each case independent of the other. And, in reality, if you look at the merits of each case, they were rather dissimilar.

 

[mioque]

There are different versions of the 10 commandments, Jewish, Catholic and Protestant.
I'm assuming most 10 commandment monuments use the Protestant list. Do all of them?
http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Bible%20Studies/10%20Commandments.htm

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by rsr:
BobRyan said:

"Our government is mandated to PAY to have a Christian pastor pray at the beginning of each session of congress."

Yes, and it should never have been permitted, as Madison argued.

He "lost the argument" because "everyone knew" the strong outspoken views of the framers of the Constitution. Take ... "Madison" for example.
Madison got Jefferson to write the text of a Sunday-Law bill that Madison would push through the Virginia legislature. Bill 84 was entitled "A Bill for Punishing Disturbers of Religious Worship AND Sabbath Breakers".

Often people think of the US anti-Christian bias in liberal politics today as something that we have "always had" but our historic institutions, laws and practice don't support that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by mioque:
There are different versions of the 10 commandments, Jewish, Catholic and Protestant.
I'm assuming most 10 commandment monuments use the Protestant list. Do all of them?
http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Bible%20Studies/10%20Commandments.htm

There are "no" different versions if you read the actual text in a Catholic Bible, a non-Catholic or a Jewish Bible.

However OUTSIDE of the Bible - things like the Catechism "number" the commandments. And there the Catholic Numbering is "something they made up" AFTER the Jewish numbering (Accepted by Protesting-Catholics) had been accepted.

So it is the "Sequence" in time that is "instructive".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[mioque]

Yes Bob I am very well aware that the numberings aren't part of the bibletext.
All those pictures of monuments I've seen over the years were numbered however.
There are 3 (not 2 like you seem to think) different traditions of numbering the 10 commandments.
Now I ask again, is the Protestant numbering scheme the one always used?