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God's Sovereignty Human Responsibility....simply put...JI Packer

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, Mar 27, 2018.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Simeon’s conversation with Wesley It is instructive in this connection to ponder Charles Simeon’s account of his conversation with John Wesley on December 20, 1784 (the date is given in Wesley’s Journal):

    “Sir, I understand that you are called an Arminian; and I have been sometimes called a Calvinist; and therefore I suppose we are to draw daggers. But before I consent to begin the combat, with your permission I will ask you a few questions…

    Pray, Sir, do you feel yourself a depraved creature, so depraved that you would never have thought of turning to God, if God had not first put it into your heart?” “Yes,” says the veteran, “I do indeed.”

    “And do you utterly despair of recommending yourself to God by anything you can do; and look for salvation solely through the blood and righteousness of Christ?” “Yes, solely through Christ.”

    “But, Sir, supposing you were at first saved by Christ, are you not somehow or other to save yourself afterwards by your own works?” “No, I must be saved by Christ from first to last.”

    “Allowing, then, that you were first turned by the grace of God, are you not in some way or other to keep yourself by your own power?” “No.”

    “What, then, are you to be upheld every hour and every moment by God, as much as an infant in its mother’s arms?” “Yes, altogether.”

    “And is all your hope in the grace and mercy of God to preserve you unto His heavenly kingdom?” “Yes, I have no hope but in Him.”

    “Then, Sir, with your leave I will put up my dagger again; for this is all my Calvinism; this is my election, my justification by faith, my final perseverance: it is in substance all that I hold, and as I hold it. And therefore, if you please, instead of searching out terms and phrases to be a ground of contention between us, we will cordially unite in those things wherein we agree.
    http://www.chapellibrary.org/files/2814/8580/5718/dsah.pdf
     
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  2. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    Amen! These are definitely things we can agree on. Praise God for these truths
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I do not think we are to disagree over what God tells us is a great blessing.
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
     
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  4. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    Amen. I certainly agree
     
  5. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    I love the works of J I Packer and they are a blessing to all who love the Lord Jesus Christ. I spent a good deal of time with his best work Knowing God. I used his workbook with it. I recommend this book to all.

    I had read this (the OP article) before but was pleased to see that you posted it God Bless.

    John Newton, the author of 'Amazing Grace' has written about this very same thing.

    More Than A Calvinist, John Newton | The Reformed Reader
     
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes...thanks for posting that fine link.
    Do you notice how reformed writers fully cover each point they bring up in a way that is thoroughly biblical.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I enjoy Tim Keller's sermons and how he deals with the truth of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Here's a short clip.

     
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  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Amen.
     
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