God's Soveriegnty

[Revmitchell]

I have often heard people say, whether it be a preacher or a lay person, let God be Lord of your life. Most of these people tell you they are dedicated to the Lord and if you are dedicated then God is Lord of your life. A person that God is Lord of their life is a person that believes God is sovereign in all things, even salvation. A king is a person that rules. A king is a person that has the power to rule. A king, whether good or bad is not brought into question by his subjects. Most people that don't believe in the sovereignty of God accuse God of not being fair because he saves one and passes by another. The question is not, is God right because he does a certain thing, but God is right, regardless of whatever he does.

This was posted in another thread in the Baptist only section and I cannot respond up there so I posted it here.

This is a complete misrepresentation of those who are not reformed. The issue is not whether we believe in the Sovereignty of God but how it is defined. Since it is defined differently there is no common ground on which to have a discussion on these issues.

But it is false, offensive, and quite frankly sophomoric to suggest that we do not believe in it. Let's be a bit more honest in our discussions.


I hold that God is sovereign regardless of the choices He requires we make in response to Him. He who has the power and authority to give salvation gets the credit for it irregardless of any choice man makes.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

This was posted in another thread in the Baptist only section and I cannot respond up there so I posted it here.

This is a complete misrepresentation of those who are not reformed. The issue is not whether we believe in the Sovereignty of God but how it is defined. Since it is defined differently there is no common ground on which to have a discussion on these issues.

But it is false, offensive, and quite frankly sophomoric to suggest that we do not believe in it. Let's be a bit more honest in our discussions.


I hold that God is sovereign regardless of the choices He requires we make in response to Him. He who has the power and authority to give salvation gets the credit for it irregardless of any choice man makes.

Good post--I agree.

It should be pointed out that Divine Sovereignty doesn't necessarily imply Strict Monergism or Exhaustive Determinism. God is certainly free to rule His universe how He sees fit, even if He decides to sovereignly allow for creaturely contingency. And if He does so choose to exercise His sovereignty in this way, who are we to argue back to God? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This was posted in another thread in the Baptist only section and I cannot respond up there so I posted it here.

This is a complete misrepresentation of those who are not reformed. The issue is not whether we believe in the Sovereignty of God but how it is defined. Since it is defined differently there is no common ground on which to have a discussion on these issues.

But it is false, offensive, and quite frankly sophomoric to suggest that we do not believe in it. Let's be a bit more honest in our discussions.


I hold that God is sovereign regardless of the choices He requires we make in response to Him. He who has the power and authority to give salvation gets the credit for it irregardless of any choice man makes.

I agree with you in this statement. :thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hey Rev, Im mighty curious.....

If you make a graph (linear) and put the RCC on the far left of Christianity, then you put another Religious Group (who is so clearly NOT Catholic on the other side) ....where would you fall on that line....considering the Churches like Episcopalians, Lutherans, United Methodists are marked fairly close to the RCC.

dont have to answer it..... just curious.

 

[Revmitchell]

Hey Rev, Im mighty curious.....

If you make a graph (linear) and put the RCC on the far left of Christianity, then you put another Religious Group (who is so clearly NOT Catholic on the other side) ....where would you fall on that line....considering the Churches like Episcopalians, Lutherans, United Methodists are marked fairly close to the RCC.

dont have to answer it..... just curious.

I wouldn't know how to answer that question.

 

[Yeshua1]

Good post--I agree.

It should be pointed out that Divine Sovereignty doesn't necessarily imply Strict Monergism or Exhaustive Determinism. God is certainly free to rule His universe how He sees fit, even if He decides to sovereignly allow for creaturely contingency. And if He does so choose to exercise His sovereignty in this way, who are we to argue back to God? :smilewinkgrin:

problem is that we have to hold to either God being Sovereign in His decision to chose just whiom shall be saved, or else have man with total free will to decide for Himself, and have God waiting on man to make the right decision regarding jesus...

Think bible clearly teaches sinners getted saved by will of god, not their own 'free will" choices here!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

problem is that we have to hold to either God being Sovereign in His decision to chose just whiom shall be saved, or else have man with total free will to decide for Himself, and have God waiting on man to make the right decision regarding jesus...

Think bible clearly teaches sinners getted saved by will of god, not their own 'free will" choices here!

imagine you are drowning in the sea not even calling out for help because you don't realize your predicament. Now in this example I would hold that God of his own volition came out to us in his boat and offered his hand to pull us out of our situation. Now we didn't get God to come out nor did we even ask for God to do so. He did entirely of his own an provided salvation for us. Now that he has offered his hand to pull us out we can accept it or not accept his hand and those of us that accept his hand rely on him to pull us out by his strength and not our own though we can cooperate by not trying to pull our hand back from his and let him pull us up and into the boat of salvation.

Using the same example for argument for the extreme reformed view God not only comes of his own volition but selects which ones he wants to pull out and pulls them out whether or not they want to be pulled out. In fact it was God that threw everyone in the water in the first place just for the purpose of pulling out the few that he chose.

In both cases God is soveriegn in one he's a Tyrant.

 

[Revmitchell]

problem is that we have to hold to either God being Sovereign in His decision to chose just whiom shall be saved, or else have man with total free will to decide for Himself, and have God waiting on man to make the right decision regarding jesus...

Think bible clearly teaches sinners getted saved by will of god, not their own 'free will" choices here!

And here we see the incorrect definition of God's Sovereignty.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

problem is that we have to hold to either God being Sovereign in His decision to chose just whiom shall be saved, or else have man with total free will to decide for Himself, and have God waiting on man to make the right decision regarding jesus...

False dichotomy. God doesn't just "wait" for man to make "right decision" regarding Jeus with "total free will". God must ACT first to draw man to Himself--to convict that man and to enable faith/repentance. Otherwise NONE could be saved, as NONE would or could make the "right decision" regarding Jesus. However, there is no reason that God in His sovereignty couldn't allow this enabling grace to be resistable...unless you want to limit the way in which God can exercise His sovereignty in salvation. If God decides to take creaturely contingency (a contingency which He ordains and--in the case of salvation--enables) into consideration regarding His judgments (and He does--see Jeremiah 18:1-11), then who are you, O man, to argue with Him?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

False dichotomy. God doesn't just "wait" for man to make "right decision" regarding Jeus with "total free will". God must ACT first to draw man to Himself--to convict that man and to enable faith/repentance. Otherwise NONE could be saved, as NONE would or could make the "right decision" regarding Jesus. However, there is no reason that God in His sovereignty couldn't allow this enabling grace to be resistable...unless you want to limit the way in which God can exercise His sovereignty in salvation. If God decides to take creaturely contingency (a contingency which He ordains and--in the case of salvation--enables) into consideration regarding His judgments (and He does--see Jeremiah 18:1-11), then who are you, O man, to argue with Him?

And so why would a Holy & Almighty God put himself in front of his own creation to look foolish & ridiculous? Would he not already know if his own creation would either revile or accept His grace?

 

[Revmitchell]

And so why would a Holy & Almighty God put himself in front of his own creation to look foolish & ridiculous look foolish & ridiculous? Would he not already know if his own creation would either revile or accept His grace?

I cannot understand what you mean by " look foolish & ridiculous".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I cannot understand what you mean by " look foolish & ridiculous".

If you know a person is going to tell you to go pound sand prior to entering into a conversation with the person, would you still proceed?

 

[Revmitchell]

If you know a person is going to tell you to go pound sand prior to entering into a conversation with the person, would you still proceed?

That is your logic? Can you provide an example of that being used in scripture? I have no reason to believe that God's perspective on this comes from that kind of logic.


I would answer that yes I would proceed, then it could not be said that you had no chance.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

And so why would a Holy & Almighty God put himself in front of his own creation to look foolish & ridiculous? Would he not already know if his own creation would either revile or accept His grace?

I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at, but Paul states something that may provide an answer...

"..but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness" (1 Cor 1:23)

So here we see the Almighty and Holy God literally putting Himself in front of His own creation in great humility up on a Cross, which indeed does appear foolish to the Gentiles. I will conclude with Paul that He did this out of LOVE (John 3:16; Romans 5:8). So despite the fact He already "knew" His own creation would either revile or accept His grace, He decided to die for the world anyway out of LOVE (despite how foolish it may look to some of His creatures).

 

[Revmitchell]

And so why would a Holy & Almighty God put himself in front of his own creation to look foolish & ridiculous? Would he not already know if his own creation would either revile or accept His grace?

By the way be careful who you share the gospel with so you do not look foolish.


I'm just saying

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at, but Paul states something that may provide an answer...

"..but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness" (1 Cor 1:23)

So here we see the Almighty and Holy God literally putting Himself in front of His own creation in great humility up on a Cross, which indeed does appear foolish to the Gentiles. I will conclude with Paul that He did this out of LOVE (John 3:16; Romans 5:8). So despite the fact He already "knew" His own creation would either revile or accept His grace, He decided to die for the world anyway out of LOVE.

I disagree....He died for those the Father gave Him so He did not die for the world....but I do agree that if any individual is to be saved, it is done by mercy only. Romans 9 :15 I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

 

[Yeshua1]

I disagree....He died for those the Father gave Him so He did not die for the world....but I do agree that if any individual is to be saved, it is done by mercy only. Romans 9 :15 I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

Man is born as sinners, whose very nature is to rebel against God!

Why would God place the ultimate basis of dtermining salvation upon those who cannot even willfully come to Christ themselves?

God determined that death of Jesus DID atone for those whom he would save by it...


Are we saying that God purposed death of jesus so that some of us "might' decide to accept him or not? To wait upon how we would respond?

Is he blind to future events until we decide what to do?

Like a combo of free will and open theism here?

 

[Revmitchell]

Why would God place the ultimate basis of dtermining salvation upon those who cannot even willfully come to Christ themselves?

This is a strawman

 

[Revmitchell]

I disagree....He died for those the Father gave Him so He did not die for the world..

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

..but I do agree that if any individual is to be saved, it is done by mercy only. Romans 9 :15 I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

Which is not evidence that God only died that some would be saved instead of all.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Yes the people who come to him are in fact those who will believe & have displayed that they would believe from the very beginning.....in other words, the Elect.

Which is not evidence that God only died that some would be saved instead of all.

I never said it was.:smilewinkgrin: