David Lamb said:
Sorry, Mr.M, but which particular message on this thread were you replying to? I can't seem to make your reply fit to any of them. Perhaps you could help me out.
Gladly. HP stated about this passage:
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Now if in fact you view ‘salvation’ as I believe Scripture represents it, as a process that begins with an act of faith, is proved out as we ‘abide’ and will be consummated as we stand before the Lord in judgment at the close of our lives, then I would agree with you. If you view the entirety of the salvation process as accomplished in full by one at of faith, then I would have a problem with your designation that this verse is referring to the gospel. Entering into the gospel, or exercising an initial act of faith itself does not speak to the principle this verse speaks of which clearly points to ‘enduring or abiding.’ One seeking or entering into salvation via the gospel message have been sinners and could not be expected to have endured in anything short of sin.
HP here believes that this is to be understood that it not simply represents the gospel but also a "process that begins with an act of faith, is proved out as we 'abide' and will be consumated as we stand before the Lord in judgment".
This is clearly both a Puritan and Calvinistic view and belief. Of course this is not what it means. So let me provide some illumination regarding what I mean and how my earlier post fits.
Here is 1 John more completely instead of the isolated passage (King James):
3Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
4I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth,as we have received a commandment from the Father.
5And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Notably first is John's writing that he is glad he found believers walking in truth or as he says
"children walking in truth". Obviously then an alternative is possible, that they be found NOT walking in truth. So it is established that children of God can be found walking in truth and not walking in truth otherwise John would have no purpose to rejoice at what would be something that could not have any exceptions. Much like someone writing and saying, I rejoiced that I found you to be a human being...ridiculous because a human being is just that a human being and there is no possible alternative. The point is of course that John understands he could have found them NOT walking in truth but is rejoicing that he found them walking in truth.
Then John warns the church in light of the importance of walking in the truth that there are many
"deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."
Obviously the satanic and the sinful human assault on the gospel is real and a threat to the church. Again, John recognizes that believers can be found NOT walking in the truth and therefore he buttresses the context of this important issue with this severe warning. These teachers are NOT acceptable teachers, they are counter to Christ and offer only doctrinal deception.
Then verse 8 makes an important statement being overlooked: John says:
"Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward." Obviously he is addressing believers to "look to yourselves, that we lost not", clearly these are not unbelievers. So it is possible for believers to lose what they have wrought, that being the Christian faith, particularly the right teaching of the doctrine of Christ. Here comes a very significan part of the passage, he warns that we look to ourselves that we loose not so...
"we receive a full reward". Apparently if we DO lose what we have wrought (not that which Christ has wrought mind you but what WE have wrought) we will receive a reward, simply not a FULL reward.
Hence, the Puritan and Calvinist idea that this is passage is teaching the expectation of perseverance can now be dismissed because John makes clear that the full reward belongs to those who do NOT lose what they have wrought and those that DO lose it get a reward, just not a full reward. God obviously isn't going to reward a non-believer but clearly rewards a believer that has lost what he has wrought, the believer just does not get a full reward.
I understand that does not answer the initial OP but is answers the question of my charge of this being an attempt to slant it in favor of the Puritan and Calvinist view of salvation when this is NOT at all the context of the passage. As far as how a believe can be without God but still be in Christ can be answered but I invested this post answering you and if you wish I can later deal with the actual OP.
M
