Grace

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

With all the obvious dissention on so many issues, it is always in order to try ones best to understand the others position to the best of our abilities. At the heart of much dissention lies the problem of terminology.

Grace is at the heart of so many discussions that it would be good to post our definitions of grace, and to explain the concept in the clearest terms we can, in order to facilitate a proper understanding of our views.

I will start this by stating that I believe grace is ‘unmerited favor.’ Are there any that believe this is in error or would have a different idea as to it’s meaning?

 

[billwald]

Agree, and grace comes in two flavors, "sanctifing" and "common."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Billwald: Agree, and grace comes in two flavors, "sanctifing" and "common."

HP: Could you explain the distinction for the list? Thanks.

 

[gekko]

i do not believe in unmerited favor. but i do not believe in merited favor either.

we didn't have to do anything for Christ to come down, die on the cross, and rise from the grave to save us from our sins. we didn't have to do anything for Him to do that.

for us to be saved - we must have repentence even before it is possible to start believing and having faith. Holy spirit works repentance through us. it is a work of God shown through us. we just make the right decision and follow Him.

so its a mix of the terms. though the terms are so overused and taken out of context so many times its hard to know what it really means.

i'll be gone for a week. God's peace and blessings all.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Geeko: i'll be gone for a week. God's peace and blessings all.

HP: Thanks Gekko. I hope you have a great week in the Lord. Possibly we can take back up the issue of grace with you on your return. See you soon.
__________________

 

[BobRyan]

I will start this by stating that I believe grace is ‘unmerited favor.’ Are there any that believe this is in error or would have a different idea as to it’s meaning?

It is true - unmerited favor.

But what is the PROCESS for bestowing unmerited favor?

Is it only bestowed after a process of "arbitrary selection" within the group of mankind - such that only those "Selected" (The FEW of Matt 7) receive "unmerited favor"?

OR is it "Bestowed upon ALL" (both the FEW of Matt 7 AND the MANY of Matt 7)?

That is where you see a huge divide.

The second area where you see the huge divide is in the area of "need" -

Why do we NEED "unmerited favor"

#1. Because we are all born with fallen natures - and all condemned as the race of fallen Adam - "by the one man sin and death spread to all"??

#2. Is it because we are all born sinless and perfect but eventually we choose sin and at that point need salvation?

#3. Is it because our fallen nature not only makes us guilty - share in the guilt of Adam but it also removes our ability to CHOOSE life even if life and salvation are offerred? Is that ANOTHER problem that "unmerited favor" must SAVE us from?

I tend to choose 1 and 3 and only the part of 2 that says "We all actively commit sin eventually".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

Grace is God's Love

God's love is His Son

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

Grace is Salvation (God's love or God's Son)

God's Love is Salvation (Grace or God's Son)

Salvation, Grace and God's love = God's son (Jesus)

Jesus (all in all)

Therefore Grace is Jesus

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: BR, you raise good questions but there are more questions than even the ones you mention that need to be asked. It is commonly indicated that grace is that which is needed to bestow the ability to act in a manner pleasing to God, as if man is born without the necessary abilities to do what He commands. This makes God out to be a taskmaster, sowing where He denied to endow or bestow the very abilities to carry out the commands He has stated He will punish man for the failure to comply with. I maintain that grace is not the bestowing of abilities, but rather it is offering man a pardon for willful transgression of known commandments of God when and only when man could have obeyed but did not.

My intent in this thread, is to illuminate the clear distinction between justice and grace that so many confuse. It would be mere justice for God to bestow the needed abilities to obey His commands not grace if God is going to praise or blame me for their intents. That is the point I have in mind.

If man is born in such a state as you claim, i.e., sinful from birth, how is it grace, i.e., ummerited favor, for God to bestow upon man the needed abilities to obey?? Would it not be justice that if man had no other possibility than to be punished for failure to carry out His commands, that God would grant to such creatures the ability first to obey? God did not only mete out punishment for Adam, but us as well. Why would God not be required by justice to provide us with the same abilities requisite for obedience as Adam?

Scripture clearly states that the children are not responsible for the sins of the parents, but everyman is responsible for his own sin. To blame a man for something he had absolutely no role in nothing short of injustice. God is Just.

Subsequent to salvation, I believe God indeed enhances our abilities to obey Him via needed motivation. This is indeed unmerited favor or grace. I would call it grace upon grace. Not only does He pardon our past sins, He comes along and upholds us with Divine motivation to continue in obedience. There may at times be a fine line between grace and that which in a sense might be called ability, but when you eliminate the part of man's will being fully capable for first light of moral agency to obey God's demands from the mix, you end up with nothing short of God being a Divine respecter of persons. If some are granted the abilities but others are withheld the needed abilities to obey, nothing is just concerning their fate.

If man is going to be blamed or praised, they must of necessity have the requisite abilities to obey. The granting of abilities is not grace, it is justice.

 

[J.D.]

HP: BR, you raise good questions but there are more questions than even the ones you mention that need to be asked. It is commonly indicated that grace is that which is needed to bestow the ability to act in a manner pleasing to God, as if man is born without the necessary abilities to do what He commands. This makes God out to be a taskmaster, sowing where He denied to endow or bestow the very abilities to carry out the commands He has stated He will punish man for the failure to comply with. I maintain that grace is not the bestowing of abilities, but rather it is offering man a pardon for willful transgression of known commandments of God when and only when man could have obeyed but did not.

My intent in this thread, is to illuminate the clear distinction between justice and grace that so many confuse. It would be mere justice for God to bestow the needed abilities to obey His commands not grace if God is going to praise or blame me for their intents. That is the point I have in mind.

If man is born in such a state as you claim, i.e., sinful from birth, how is it grace, i.e., ummerited favor, for God to bestow upon man the needed abilities to obey?? Would it not be justice that if man had no other possibility than to be punished for failure to carry out His commands, that God would grant to such creatures the ability first to obey? God did not only mete out punishment for Adam, but us as well. Why would God not be required by justice to provide us with the same abilities requisite for obedience as Adam?

Scripture clearly states that the children are not responsible for the sins of the parents, but everyman is responsible for his own sin. To blame a man for something he had absolutely no role in nothing short of injustice. God is Just.

Subsequent to salvation, I believe God indeed enhances our abilities to obey Him via needed motivation. This is indeed unmerited favor or grace. I would call it grace upon grace. Not only does He pardon our past sins, He comes along and upholds us with Divine motivation to continue in obedience. There may at times be a fine line between grace and that which in a sense might be called ability, but when you eliminate the part of man's will being fully capable for first light of moral agency to obey God's demands from the mix, you end up with nothing short of God being a Divine respecter of persons. If some are granted the abilities but others are withheld the needed abilities to obey, nothing is just concerning their fate.

If man is going to be blamed or praised, they must of necessity have the requisite abilities to obey. The granting of abilities is not grace, it is justice.

So, grace is that which God gives to good people that have obeyed him so they can obey him even more? So then, grace is that which is merited by the good works of the not-so-bad of Adam's posterity, O Pelagius?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JD: So, grace is that which God gives to good people that have obeyed him so they can obey him even more? So then, grace is that which is merited by the good works of the not-so-bad of Adam's posterity, O Pelagius?

HP: Thanks to Augustine’s sense of fair play (not) in destroying every thing written by Pelagius that he could get his hands on, no one is able to rightfully 'fully' understand that which Pelagius really believed. If you are gullible enough to believe the writings of Augustine, Pelagius’s strong armed detractor, and believe what he claimed Pelagius believed, go ahead and call me Pelagius. Don’t be surprised in the end when you are found to be as biased and unfair as Augustine showed himself to be.

Show me where I or any other on this list has ever suggested that anything a sinner does demands merit in regard to salvation. That is a total misrepresentation of the facts. You could not be more misguided and misinformed as to what I believe or that which Pelagius believed by the writings that are available to us of his own.

 

[TaliOrlando]

BE PREPARED TO RECEIVE TODAY’S BLESSING!!! BELOW IS SOME SCRIPTURE THAT BLESSED ME!!!!
John 1:16 (New International Version - UK) www.biblegateway.com
(16) From the fulness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.

God’s blessings to you in Christ are not
Payments for services rendered. There are
Not a certain number allotted to you.

Blessings flow from Grace. Grace doesn’t keep
Track of how much is given. It doesn’t say,
“ I gave, so you owe me.” It doesn’t run out just
when you need it most. Grace says, “You’ve just received a
rich blessing and get ready for another one!”


We are too blessed to be depressed!!! Have a positive and blessed day!!! Your attitude today will determine your blessing tomorrow!!! Think Positive and always confess victory in your life!!!

God Bless,

Tali