Greek goddess Themis in Alabama

[Dale-c]

http://www.retakingamerica.com/great_amer_ten_pagan_fed_01.html

Christians are quick to jump on the case of Judge Roy Moore over his refusal to move the ten commandments. Some say he was wrong for ever doing so in the first place.

But why has there not been one word from any of you about the hypocrisy of the Greek goddess Themis at the Federal Courthouse in Montgomery?
Several of you have said we don't want the ten commandments because we don't want a "tailban" or a theocracy but then you lay silent as our God is taken out and a new god is put in it's place.


How to you excuse that behavior of the federal courts?

 

[Daisy]

Themis - Goddess of Justice, typically depicted as blindfolded and holding a scales. Imagine having a symbol of impartial justice at a courthouse!

[sarcasm]If that is not an attack on Christianity, then what would be! [/sarcasm]

Just curious - do you thing that anyone believes nowadays that Themis exists as a Goddess or that praying to her would affect the outcome of a case?

How long has that Symbol of Justice been there?

 

[Dale-c]

Just curious - do you thing that anyone believes nowadays that Themis exists as a Goddess or that praying to her would affect the outcome of a case?

That is the same excuse for the ten commandments in other places. If no one BELIEVES it, then it is ok.

Imagine having a symbol of impartial justice at a courthouse!

Well we certainly have impartial justice now!
Oh, wait, impartial unless you are in innocent unborn and defensless baby!, or perhaps a lady that can't talk anymore and needs help to even feed herself.
It is survival of the fittest.
The ones with the most money and power and influence are the fittest.

 

[Daisy]

That is the same excuse for the ten commandments in other places. If no one BELIEVES it, then it is ok.

Not exactly, the question is if a particular monument is intended to further a particular religion. Roy Moore meant the 10 C monument as a Christian symbol - he doesn't deny that.

From the decision

4

Chief Justice Moore contends that under the district court’s reasoning, the sculpture of “Themis,” the Greek goddess of justice, which is part of the fountain in front of the courthouse where the trial in this case took place, would also be unconstitutional. Brief of Appellant at 15 n.4. His contention ignores the clear factual and contextual distinctions between that sculpture and the Ten Commandments monument. There is no evidence that the sculpture has had the effect of furthering religion, or that its purpose was to do so.​

<snip>​

The rule of law does require that every person obey judicial orders when all available means of appealing them have been exhausted. The chief justice of a state supreme court, of all people, should be expected to abide by that principle. We do expect that if he is unable to have the district court’s order overturned through the usual appellate processes, when the time comes Chief Justice Moore will obey that order. If necessary, the court order will be enforced. The rule of law will prevail.

Source: Decision Glassroth v Moore: Eleventh Circuit: Findlaw (linkie - pdf)​

Well we certainly have impartial justice now!

Oh, wait, impartial unless you are in innocent unborn and defensless baby!, or perhaps a lady that can't talk anymore and needs help to even feed herself.​

It is survival of the fittest.

The ones with the most money and power and influence are the fittest.


​

So reality falls short of the ideal - is that a reason to not have a symbol of law & justice at a courthouse?​

 

[Dale-c]

Not exactly, the question is if a particular monument is intended to further a particular religion. Roy Moore meant the 10 C monument as a Christian symbol - he doesn't deny that.

Nor should he, otherwise he would be taking God's name in vain!

So reality falls short of the ideal - is that a reason to not have a symbol of law & justice at a courthouse?

When we acknowledged God as a nation, we didn't have those problems

 

[tragic_pizza]

Nor should he, otherwise he would be taking God's name in vain!



When we acknowledged God as a nation, we didn't have those problems

Ever read the Theological Declaration of Barmen? It is germaine to this discussion.

 

[Daisy]

When we acknowledged God as a nation, we didn't have those problems

From when to when did we as a nation acknowledge God and how did we do that?

Force-feeding a living corpse is not my idea of justice. What makes you think that there were no abortions at whatever time period you are referring to?

Did we at that time have symbols of justice in front of our courthouses?

 

[Dale-c]

From when to when did we as a nation acknowledge God and how did we do that?

When our laws in general reflected a Biblically based world view.

Force-feeding a living corpse is not my idea of justice.

I have no idea what that means!

What makes you think that there were no abortions at whatever time period you are referring to?

Um....if you read a little history, there were no abortions that were protected by the government until Roe v. Wade. That is not to say that it wasn't ever happening. There always has been and always will be murder but that doesn't change the governments God given duty to prosecute those crimes!

Did we at that time have symbols of justice in front of our courthouses?

I am sure each courthouse was different in it's displays but a courthouse near here had the ten commandments for yyears until it was banned a few years ago.

 

[Dale-c]

Ever read the Theological Declaration of Barmen?

no, I haven't what is it? Can you link to it?

 

[tragic_pizza]

no, I haven't what is it? Can you link to it?

http://www.casi.org.nz/statements/decbarmen.html

 

[Dale-c]

Thanks, I will look it up.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Thanks, I will look it up.

I'm interested in your reaction.

By the way, the Declaration is one of the foundational documents of the 20th Century Reformed Tradition, and is part of the PC(USA)'s Book of Confessions.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Dale, for someone who does not live in Alabama, you sure are awfully interested in how we do things! You contemplating a move south?

I'm going to come around to the Themis statue from the back way, through your idea that at sometime in US history we ever did things from a "Christian" perspective.

Oh wait! First we have to define the terms Christian perspective. Do that for me and then I'll check my history books for evidence that at some time during the history of the US this country did nothing that went against the "Christian" view.

Links for your perusal:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/figuresofjustice.pdf

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/publicinfo/modernization/home.htm

Purpose of links is to show that Themis has been used to symbolize liberty and justice in this country for a lot longer than you seem to realize without objection from those holding a "Christian" perspective.

 

[Dale-c]

Dale, for someone who does not live in Alabama, you sure are awfully interested in how we do things! You contemplating a move south?

I thought you might think that. Actually, I try to stay out of certain things but I felt the ten commandments issue affected us all, especially since it was a federal judge that made the order.

As far as moving south, my ancestry actually is from your neighbor state of Mississippi.
Unfortunately, they lost their farm to the carpetbaggers after the civil war. I have visited down there and I do like it. There is still much more Christian influence there than there is in Indiana and much more in Indiana than there is in the west.
It has been ten years though since I have been to Alabama.
C4K brought up other issues (or at least stated that there were some) other than this that he didn't feel that he could vote for Moore.
That is fine, Alabama business is your business.
My concern is that the Federal Government is encroaching where they don't belong. Religious liberties are slowly (or maybe rapidly) being taken away. At first it it may seem only public but it will lead to more and more tyranny.

I'm going to come around to the Themis statue from the back way, through your idea that at sometime in US history we ever did things from a "Christian" perspective.

I haven't read those links yet but I am not sure what you are getting at. The only difference between now and 1776 when the declaration of Independence was signed is that the struggle then was more controlled by Christians, ie they were the majority of influence and not they are not.

I am aware that Themis goes back a long way, however, so does the Ten Commandments.
My point is that if one goes, they should both go and whether you like it or not, God will hold all nations accountable for their government. They are all God's ministers and must acknowledge God.
I am sorry but I do not have time to go into this further, I have already spent way too much time on this but it is a very important subject.
I will get back to it when I can.

God bless...
Dale

 

[Alcott]

I must agree with the basic premise of this thread. A Ten Commandments monument (though I personally don't approve of such monuments, nor do I think all commandments therein stated are valid for NT Christians), a cross in a national park, a city seal that includes a cross or a Bible..... these have been ruled unconstitutional, while a goddess statue, the eye-in-a-pyramid, Pegasis, Mercury's wing on a shoe, et al.... these are 'consitutional.' It seems to depend on what particular gods are indicated, whether the symbols are constitutional.

Furthermore, both colloquially and 'officially,' we call the days of the week and months of the year by names referencing Graeco/Roman or Norse deities, but even for the one day 'Christmas' there is a campaign every year to have it done away with or renamed in public schools and other government entities.

I have brought these subjects up before on other sites, including atheist sites, and the responses are usually one of 2 things-- that Christianity (and to a lesser extent in America, Judaism and Islam) are "active" religions, and these mthological symbols are simply folklore that no one takes in any sense but as artistic; or, that these are only brought up to "parody" the current church/state debates. Alright, if anyone reading this believes those things... exactly where and how does the US Consitution make any differentiation between "active" and "inactive" religions? and how many people must believe in a particular deity to 'make it' unconstitutional?

 

[menageriekeeper]

What I'm getting at is this Dale, there has never been a point in time in this country where it was controlled exclusively by Christians. Even it they claimed Christianity it was often simply lip service, a means to an end. (huh, sounds like today's politicians)

"Christians" owned slaves, thought nothing of using them for physical pleasure, ran slave ships that packed people in like sardines with no sanitation, fought the American Indian and stole their land, owned factories that used child labor, formed the Ku Klux Klan and terrorized their brothers and sisters in Christ because their skin happened to be a different color while the equally "Christian" authorities stood by and either did nothing or actually encouraged their actions. "Christian" men treated their wives and children as property instead of the precious gifts of God they were.

How many details of our historically "Christian" society will it take for you to realize that it simply wasn't so. Christians (such as you and I) have no leg to stand on when one considers some of the blatantly UnChristian things our "Christian" forefathers chose to do.

Oh, and these same "Christian" men who led our country during it's "Christian" history ALLOWED the use of Themis(a false Greek goddess) as our countries symbol of liberty and justice.

Perhaps, if these men were really Christian in the way you and I think of Christian (sinners saved by grace), they allowed the usage of Themis, pagan goddess, in order to symbolize the liberty of a person to follow WHATEVER religion they wished and still be assured of justice in a court system that understood that liberty for all meant LIBERTY FOR ALL (even those who want the liberty to not be reminded that there is a God to whom they will one day answer).

 

[Dale-c]

How many details of our historically "Christian" society will it take for you to realize that it simply wasn't so.

Man is a fallen creature. I never said it was perfect but you are talking like the things that you stated were just what everyone did. That is certainly not so.
The slave trade started many years before by Europeans. Yes, the americas had their share of the slave trade.
While the Bible doesn't strictly prohibit slavery, it does regulate it and it is usually a result of generations of sin.
Slavery as an institution was dying as we had revival in our country. Did everyone get saved? Most certainly not. Were there still greats evils? You bet.

I must say I don't understand you point in all of this. You seem more and more to be taking the anti Christian position and siding with the ACLU??
I just don't understand it.

"Let us also learn that nothing is less consistent than to punish heavily the crimes whereby mortals are injured, whilst we connive at the impious errors or sacrilegious modes of worship whereby the majesty of God is violated."
John Calvin

That has never been more pertinent that in our world today!

 

[Dale-c]

For this you have every inducement of sympathy and interest. Citizens, by birth or choice, of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles. You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together; the independence and liberty you possess are the work of joint counsels, and joint efforts of common dangers, sufferings, and successes.

This is from George Washington's farewell address.
Note "With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion"

And what religion might that be?

 

[Daisy]

I<snip>

I have brought these subjects up before on other sites, including atheist sites, and the responses are usually one of 2 things-- that Christianity (and to a lesser extent in America, Judaism and Islam) are "active" religions, and these mthological symbols are simply folklore that no one takes in any sense but as artistic; or, that these are only brought up to "parody" the current church/state debates. Alright, if anyone reading this believes those things... exactly where and how does the US Consitution make any differentiation between "active" and "inactive" religions? and how many people must believe in a particular deity to 'make it' unconstitutional?

The courts have held that if a symbol was used to promote a religion or used to further it, then it was disallowed, but if it stood for a concept such as "justice", then it would be allowed.

Seriously, Alcott, are you claiming that a statue of Themis is really meant to further the cult of the goddess rather than the abstract concept of law and justice? Some of the 10 C displays have also been deemed not to be supporting a religion when they are part of the general theme of law throughout the ages. And the one from the movie set, for some reason...

 

[menageriekeeper]

I believe Dale, that at this time our views are so far apart that it may be impossible for us to completely see each other's views.

I do understand your view though because I used to believe the same as you. But at the bottom of that belief is a certain amount of arrogance (how dare someone tell me I can't....) and unrealistic thinking (the kind that believes "Well if all the world would just accept Christ). I think it comes from so many generations of Christians who were never challenged in their beliefs and who never challenged their beliefs. They simply took what their parents(or preachers) taught them at face value and never bothered to actually study the Word for themselves. This left them unable to defend their beliefs because they hadn't developed a firm foundation.

Now, instead of all this publicity over a rock, I think everyone's time and money would have been better spent actually getting out with the people and spreading the Good News! We have no laws against speaking one on one to people about our beliefs.

Instead of fighting for laws against abortion, why not give it up as a lost cause in a sinful world and instead spend our time teaching young people why they shouldn't have sex in the first place? Do you have any idea how many kids congregate at the local Walmart parking lot, completely unsupervised? Why aren't we out there showing them that it is okay to have fun and hang with their friends but sex is a gift for marriage.

The fields are white unto havest, why aren't we havesting!?

It's not that I personally have anything against having the ten commandmants on public property, it's that I believe that such efforts are futile and our priorities have been misplaced. Instead of wasting so much time and effort on what God hasn't told us to do--setting up monuments--and start doing what God has told us to do--"Go ye unto all the world and preach the gospel..".