Greek goddess Themis in Alabama

Themis - Goddess of Justice, typically depicted as blindfolded and holding a scales. Imagine having a symbol of impartial justice at a courthouse!

[sarcasm]If that is not an attack on Christianity, then what would be! [/sarcasm]

Just curious - do you thing that anyone believes nowadays that Themis exists as a Goddess or that praying to her would affect the outcome of a case?

How long has that Symbol of Justice been there?

 

Not exactly, the question is if a particular monument is intended to further a particular religion. Roy Moore meant the 10 C monument as a Christian symbol - he doesn't deny that.

From the decision

So reality falls short of the ideal - is that a reason to not have a symbol of law & justice at a courthouse?​

 

Ever read the Theological Declaration of Barmen? It is germaine to this discussion.

 

From when to when did we as a nation acknowledge God and how did we do that?

Force-feeding a living corpse is not my idea of justice. What makes you think that there were no abortions at whatever time period you are referring to?

Did we at that time have symbols of justice in front of our courthouses?

 

http://www.casi.org.nz/statements/decbarmen.html

 

I'm interested in your reaction.

By the way, the Declaration is one of the foundational documents of the 20th Century Reformed Tradition, and is part of the PC(USA)'s Book of Confessions.

 

Dale, for someone who does not live in Alabama, you sure are awfully interested in how we do things! You contemplating a move south?

I'm going to come around to the Themis statue from the back way, through your idea that at sometime in US history we ever did things from a "Christian" perspective.

Oh wait! First we have to define the terms Christian perspective. Do that for me and then I'll check my history books for evidence that at some time during the history of the US this country did nothing that went against the "Christian" view.

Links for your perusal:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/figuresofjustice.pdf

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/publicinfo/modernization/home.htm

Purpose of links is to show that Themis has been used to symbolize liberty and justice in this country for a lot longer than you seem to realize without objection from those holding a "Christian" perspective.

 

I must agree with the basic premise of this thread. A Ten Commandments monument (though I personally don't approve of such monuments, nor do I think all commandments therein stated are valid for NT Christians), a cross in a national park, a city seal that includes a cross or a Bible..... these have been ruled unconstitutional, while a goddess statue, the eye-in-a-pyramid, Pegasis, Mercury's wing on a shoe, et al.... these are 'consitutional.' It seems to depend on what particular gods are indicated, whether the symbols are constitutional.

Furthermore, both colloquially and 'officially,' we call the days of the week and months of the year by names referencing Graeco/Roman or Norse deities, but even for the one day 'Christmas' there is a campaign every year to have it done away with or renamed in public schools and other government entities.

I have brought these subjects up before on other sites, including atheist sites, and the responses are usually one of 2 things-- that Christianity (and to a lesser extent in America, Judaism and Islam) are "active" religions, and these mthological symbols are simply folklore that no one takes in any sense but as artistic; or, that these are only brought up to "parody" the current church/state debates. Alright, if anyone reading this believes those things... exactly where and how does the US Consitution make any differentiation between "active" and "inactive" religions? and how many people must believe in a particular deity to 'make it' unconstitutional?

 

What I'm getting at is this Dale, there has never been a point in time in this country where it was controlled exclusively by Christians. Even it they claimed Christianity it was often simply lip service, a means to an end. (huh, sounds like today's politicians)

"Christians" owned slaves, thought nothing of using them for physical pleasure, ran slave ships that packed people in like sardines with no sanitation, fought the American Indian and stole their land, owned factories that used child labor, formed the Ku Klux Klan and terrorized their brothers and sisters in Christ because their skin happened to be a different color while the equally "Christian" authorities stood by and either did nothing or actually encouraged their actions. "Christian" men treated their wives and children as property instead of the precious gifts of God they were.

How many details of our historically "Christian" society will it take for you to realize that it simply wasn't so. Christians (such as you and I) have no leg to stand on when one considers some of the blatantly UnChristian things our "Christian" forefathers chose to do.

Oh, and these same "Christian" men who led our country during it's "Christian" history ALLOWED the use of Themis(a false Greek goddess) as our countries symbol of liberty and justice.

Perhaps, if these men were really Christian in the way you and I think of Christian (sinners saved by grace), they allowed the usage of Themis, pagan goddess, in order to symbolize the liberty of a person to follow WHATEVER religion they wished and still be assured of justice in a court system that understood that liberty for all meant LIBERTY FOR ALL (even those who want the liberty to not be reminded that there is a God to whom they will one day answer).

 

The courts have held that if a symbol was used to promote a religion or used to further it, then it was disallowed, but if it stood for a concept such as "justice", then it would be allowed.

Seriously, Alcott, are you claiming that a statue of Themis is really meant to further the cult of the goddess rather than the abstract concept of law and justice? Some of the 10 C displays have also been deemed not to be supporting a religion when they are part of the general theme of law throughout the ages. And the one from the movie set, for some reason...

 

I believe Dale, that at this time our views are so far apart that it may be impossible for us to completely see each other's views.

I do understand your view though because I used to believe the same as you. But at the bottom of that belief is a certain amount of arrogance (how dare someone tell me I can't....) and unrealistic thinking (the kind that believes "Well if all the world would just accept Christ). I think it comes from so many generations of Christians who were never challenged in their beliefs and who never challenged their beliefs. They simply took what their parents(or preachers) taught them at face value and never bothered to actually study the Word for themselves. This left them unable to defend their beliefs because they hadn't developed a firm foundation.

Now, instead of all this publicity over a rock, I think everyone's time and money would have been better spent actually getting out with the people and spreading the Good News! We have no laws against speaking one on one to people about our beliefs.

Instead of fighting for laws against abortion, why not give it up as a lost cause in a sinful world and instead spend our time teaching young people why they shouldn't have sex in the first place? Do you have any idea how many kids congregate at the local Walmart parking lot, completely unsupervised? Why aren't we out there showing them that it is okay to have fun and hang with their friends but sex is a gift for marriage.

The fields are white unto havest, why aren't we havesting!?

It's not that I personally have anything against having the ten commandmants on public property, it's that I believe that such efforts are futile and our priorities have been misplaced. Instead of wasting so much time and effort on what God hasn't told us to do--setting up monuments--and start doing what God has told us to do--"Go ye unto all the world and preach the gospel..".