1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Greek "Middle Voice"

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SheepWhisperer, Aug 28, 2017.

Top Posters
  1. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    46
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ↑
    In a previous thread, now closed, I had mentioned that a Greek word in Acts 13:48 was "Tasso".
    My information had come from the Strong's Concordance. But I have consulted a pastor who is far more knowledgeable in Greek than I, and he informs me, as the brother below has done, that the correct word is "tetagmenoi". I stand corrected.........

    However, the pastor friend of mine says that "tetagmenoi" is also used as a "middle voice verb" as mentioned above. From what I understand, "middle voice" isn't used in English, but in Greek it eliminates the need for a "reflexive pronoun" such as the word "themselves". Why didn't you mention that brother?
     
    #1 SheepWhisperer, Aug 28, 2017
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Because, as I have pointed out over and over and over again, τεταγμενοι, in this case, is passive voice.

    Look. Don't take my word for it. Get a Greek New Testament which contains parsing codes. There is one online at ACVI - A Conservative Version Reverse Interlinear New Testament Miniscule Edition - navigating is a little complicated, but scroll down (way down) almost to the end of the page where you will see a large blue bar with the NT books listed. Click on ACTS then on 13 for the chapter. Go to the end of the chapter. Then slowly scroll up until you see, in all caps, WERE APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED with the number 49 in the right hand margin.

    Above the word APPOINTED you will see τεταγμενοι, the word in question. Above the Greek word you will see V-RPP-NPM in blue. That is a link to the Greek parsing code. Click on it and you will see:
    V-RPP-NPM - Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes
    Tense: peRfect
    Voice: Passive
    Mood: Participle
    Case: Nominative
    Number: Plural
    Gender: Masculine

    Notice the Voice of the verb is Passive.

    The monumental work was done by Dr. Maurice Robinson, of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (retired) who was
    Senior Professor of New Testament and Greek.

    To see Dr. Robinson's CV, click here http://apps.sebts.edu/FacultyUploads/VITA.pdf
     
    #2 TCassidy, Aug 28, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    46
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Seeing that your Dr. Robinson has chosen to place his membership in a Calvinist church, would there be the slightest possibilty? Nah, there couldn't be.........Our Beliefs :: Bay Leaf Baptist Church
     
    #3 SheepWhisperer, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did you read the man's cv? Do you really think the man is a liar? The only person in this discussion who is trying to change what the bible says because of his bias is you!

    KJV 1611/1769 as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
    RV 1881 as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
    TLV 1971 as many as had been inscribed for eternal life believed.
    ASV 1901 as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
    MKJV 1962 as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
    WEB 2000 as were appointed to eternal life believed.
    WEBSTER 1833 as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.
    LITV 1976 as were appointed to eternal life believed.
    BISHOPS 1568 as many as were ordayned to eternall lyfe, beleued.
    CEV 1995 who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.
    EMTV 2009 as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
    NIV 1973 all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
    ESV 2001 as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

    Every single one of those words are in the passive voice. Do you really want to claim that every bible translator ever, was wrong and you, and only you, are right?

    Do you want to claim the Holy Spirit was wrong for inspiring τεταγμενοι, a perfect, passive, participle, and you, and only you, are right?

    In order for it to be a middle voice verb it would be similar to ταξαμενοι, an aorist middle participle or εταξατο an aorist, middle indicative.

    I have been very patient with you. But you don't trust my understanding of the Greek word in question because you think I am biased because I am a "Calvinist." (I'm not, but that, for now, is beside the point.)

    So I post the parsing from the man who is quite arguably the best Greek scholar alive today. But you accuse him of being biased instead of realizing his unmatched knowledge of New Testament Greek. Fine.

    I post the reading as found in almost ever major English translation for the past 450 years. Are you going to say they are all biased too?

    Just swallow your pride and accept the word of God for what it says. Please.
     
    #4 TCassidy, Aug 28, 2017
    • Winner Winner x 3
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,924
    Likes Received:
    2,135
    Faith:
    Baptist
    'Fraid not. I am staring at my copy of Bagster's Analytical Greek Lexicon (1977 edition) and it says exactly what Dr. Robinson says.
     
    #5 Martin Marprelate, Aug 28, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As does Mounce, and Moulton and Wigram (Perschbacher edition) and on and on and on and on.

    But I don't think it will make any difference. He knows what he (thinks) he knows and he absolutely refuses to accept the facts.

    He seems to be the personification of "You can have your own opinion but you cannot have your own facts."
     
    #6 TCassidy, Aug 28, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Perhaps, TC, whisperer was merely asking a legitimate question as to what level does bias raise to oblige molding a translation rather than the translation doing the molding.

    You and I have both met with some on this board who place view above truth. Have we not considered that occasionally as we would at times contend.

    I may be wrong, but perhaps whisper needs to be educated in such a way as to allow for some correctives without the sting of rebuke.

    We both know other posters who have long contended from the intransigence of obstinacy.
     
    #7 agedman, Aug 29, 2017
  8. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    46
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I was saved under preaching from a King James Bible, so forgive me for adhering to that. I have been taught that Jesus gave Himself for the whole world and was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world and I find these things are in that King James Bible.. So I would also ask that you forgive my "intransigence of obstinacy" in this matter. All the old versions you posted say "ordained" and I have no problem with that whatsoever and I have reason for that as well.. So I ask you again, for the third or fourth time.......... In the 14th century manuscript below, from Middle English; who "ordeyenes" a man to "concupiscence"? Is it "appointed" in him or does he cause it himself.?......

    With us, as to temptacioun, which peyne
    335
    Highte concupiscence./ And this concupiscence,
    336
    whan it is wrongfully disposed
    336
    Or ordeyned in man, it maketh hym coveite,
    336
    By coveitise of flessh, flesshly synne, by sighte
    336
    Of his eyen as to erthely thynges, and eek
    336
    Coveitise of hynesse by pride of herte./
    337
    Now, as for to speken of the firste coveitise,
    337
    That is concupiscence, after the lawe of oure
    337
     
    #8 SheepWhisperer, Aug 30, 2017
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That manuscript is not inspired. And in the case of that statement, it seems to indicate a middle voice.

    But what you seem to fail to understand is we are not talking about that manuscript. We are talking about the inspired word of God.

    The inspired word of God says that a person is ordained, or appointed, or chosen. All three of those words mean the same thing. It is what the bible says. Accept it or reject it. I don't care any more. It is now between you and the Lord.

    I have wasted enough time on trying to show you the Truth. From here on you are on your own. Good luck. And may the Holy Spirit of God open your heart and mind to the Truth of His Inspired word.
     
    #9 TCassidy, Aug 30, 2017
  10. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    46
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hold on just a minute. Have you ever gone to an "uninspired" English dictionary to look up Bible words? Ok, I'm simply showing you HOW the word "ordained" can be used. Since you are done, I will post this for someone else's benefit. The word "ordained" basically means to be arranged, fixed, set, or established in order. So with the example above, a man who habitually sins, be comes "set in his ways", or "orders" his life toward that sin(in this case "concupioscence") Again, just showing you this "archaic" use of the word. So, one can be "ordained" by another to a certain thing such as a position or one can "ordain" himself to something as well. I post it again for clarity......
    With us, as to temptacioun, which peyne
    335
    Highte concupiscence./ And this concupiscence,
    336
    whan it is wrongfully disposed
    336
    Or ordeyned in man, it maketh hym coveite,
    336
    By coveitise of flessh, flesshly synne, by sighte
    336
    Of his eyen as to erthely thynges, and eek
    336
    Coveitise of hynesse by pride of herte./
    337
    Now, as for to speken of the firste coveitise,
    337
    That is concupiscence, after the lawe of oure

    From "The Canturbury Tales" by Geoffrey Chaucer, circa late 14th Century
     
    #10 SheepWhisperer, Aug 30, 2017
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, I have never tried to look up a Greek word in an English dictionary. It seems rather illogical to try to do so.

    Which is completely irrelevant. We are talking about a Greek participle in the passive voice, translated ordained, or appointed, or chosen, all three of which are synonyms. The bible says, "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." "As many as were appointed to eternal life believed."As many as were chosen to eternal life believed."

    They all mean the same thing. That is God's word.

    Is it hard for thee to kick against the pricks?
     
    #11 TCassidy, Aug 30, 2017
  12. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    46
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We're talking about the meaning of the word "ordained". One can be ordained to something, without the actions of another.
     
    #12 SheepWhisperer, Aug 30, 2017
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not with a PASSIVE VOICE verb! Come on! This is 4th grade grammar!

    Active voice: Something you do.
    Middle voice: Something you do to yourself.
    Passive voice: Something done to you by another.
     
    #13 TCassidy, Aug 30, 2017
  14. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Really? I think the above makes a lot of sense.
     
    #14 Rippon, Aug 30, 2017
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is, if your theology does not allow for that way to see the scriptures!
     
    #15 Yeshua1, Aug 30, 2017
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just wonder where Van is on this ? As he tends to jump in and try to correct either you or John of Japan on the Greek!
     
    #16 Yeshua1, Aug 30, 2017
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...