Has anyone changed their mind?

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Npet, so what does the phrase "not your own doing" refer to? Even if "this" refers to the entire phrase "by grace you have been saved through faith" It turns that entire phrase into the work of God, it still says that "this is not your own doing" What is the subject and main point of the sentence?

--You have been saved. How have we been saved? By grace. What means are we saved by... faith. So the "this" refers to the entire passage, it still does not make faith something apart from a gift from God. It just means that the whole process is a gift from God.

 

So according to your new understanding, the gift is not faith. I am okay with that. Your new understanding I think strenghthens the reformed position. It makes the entire process of God saving us by HIS grace through our faith HIS gift to us. It makes His grace and our faith both HIS gift.

 

There's a thread on here somewhere, but if you diagram the sentence out, "grace" is the gift of God in that passage. I think there's a link to the diagram on that thread.

 

I am aware of two people who read but do not post who have changed from being 'sort of' Calvinists to deciding it was totally wrong and that there is a much more accurate understanding of the Bible's message which is, by the way, NOT Arminian (either).

I do not know them personally, but have only received PM's and emails from them asking more questions.

By the way, although an increase of faith may well be a gift from God, faith itself isn't. We all have faith everyday ... in something or someone. It is the object of the faith which is the sticking point. Turn the faith you might have in yourself, or a guru, or education, or politics, or whatever, instead to God, and He will save you by grace through the avenue of that faith. The object of the faith you have in your everyday life is up to you, however. What you decide to have faith IN is up to you.

 

Npet...Great, I was worried from your OP that it had been a major change! You are a wonderful soldier for the TRUTH and I enjoy your posts. Keep up the good work.

 

npetreley, I simply tried to answer your question in the OP. Your attitude in your response to me is something I have learned from painful experience is to be expected from a number of Calvinists, however.

If you have received a thousand private messages regarding changes, that is truly amazing. I have received messages from two people and simply tried to respond to your question with that. I have not changed. I could only mention two I am aware of who have.

I'm sorry to have bothered you with my response. I won't make that mistake again. I have -- if you have noticed -- refrained from the Calvinist posts for quite a while now. The anger and arrogance in them has passed even the point of my personal amazement and gone into "here's another same old same old."

If you don't want answers, though, please don't aske the questions.

 

npetreley,

To get this thread more on topic, I have not changed my mind on issues based on any particular postings. I have revised my positions on a number of things over the years based upon perponderance of evidence and new information (at least new to me).

I do think some people get stuck on pet ideas, particularly in areas where personal liberty should be dominant. One should always be open to processing new information and bouncing their beliefs against such data, which will either support, or refute, held positions.

MP

 

I don't want to turn this into a Eph. 2 discussion, but in all fairness the greek tense doesn't support a reformed position. Whether it's "have been" or "you are", it is only pointing to God's grace (through faith) as the His "gift", not HOW it's given.

Anyway, I have had some changes in some areas. I used to think it was a sin to even look at a glass of wine or beer (do not gaze when it's red..., not for kings, yada yada), but after studying the 240 verses that mention wine and "other strong drink", I came to the conclusiong that not only did Jesus drink and make alcoholic wine, but that drunkeness and addiction are what's actually sinful, not it's consumption.

 

You didn't answer my question. I asked if anyone else HERE has had a similar experience. I didn't ask if anyone HERE heard from people in private messages.

They are members here. They don't post. That's all.

 

Not necessarily a change in position, but I have tried to change my attitude and demeanor in my postings, after seeing people complain about "angry Calvinists" and what-not. I observed that some of my former posts could be construed as angry, judgmental, arrogant, etc., so I have since tried to be careful with how I construct my posts and wording to not unnecessarily offend someone. I'm sure I still fail at times, though.

 

Hello npetrely - to answer your OP yes, I have changed my mind about some issues - mostly I've been pulled back from true hypercalvinism by reading many of the posts of more orthodox calvinists on this board.

But unlike yourself, I remain convinced that faith is "that" gift. I have always been and still am skeptical of arguments based on Greek grammatical structure. I probably speak out of turn on that because I have no formal training in bible languages, but I've always noticed how Greek experts will face off with their subjuntive indicatives and so forth and they rarely come to agreement. I believe in my own amaturish way that the key to proper interpretation of any language, whether Greek, Hebrew, Latin, or English, is primarily in the general context, and only secondarily in particulars of grammer. Let's look at the context a little.

.....For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. For ye are his workmanship....

Perhaps the grammatical structure points to the whole phrase - so be it - but I think faith remains that focus of the passage.

"That" points to an object - a noun - as does "of yourselves" - "of" indicates there's a source being cited. So what is not "of yourselves"?

Also, "it" is the gift - what is the gift? Is it grace? I don't think so, because grace is the motive of giving, but not the gift itself. But grace CAN be a gift, for he gives grace to people. But this passage does not deal with the gift OF grace, but rather a gift BY grace (for BY grace are ye saved...) So then, if grace is the SOURCE of the gift, it can not be the gift itself.

Now can "saved" be the object of "that" and "it". Well in a general sense it surely can be. But in this passage, it doesn't fit. Why? Because "and that not of yourselves" is a contraphrase to "for by grace are ye saved through faith". And why is a contraphrase necessary here? Grace and salvation has been the theme of the entire chapter. Paul has already established earlier in the chapter that "by grace are ye saved". So what is introduced into the theology in verse 8? FAITH

So then "faith" can be the only true parallel to "that" and "it", and we see it confirmed in "not of works", here faith is clearly set off against "works", again, faith is the object of the statement.

Now notice: "not of works" in v9 against "his workmanship" in v10. This contrasts the work of man from the work of God. How is it that we, that have been saved by grace through faith, are God's workmanship? God's working in us is the infusion of his spirit whereby saving faith is brought to light through the gospel. "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." "For it is God that works in you both to do and to will of his good pleasure".

Also, as Paul continues his discourse, he lays open the gathering of the gentiles into the household of faith, showing how that God chose to bring both jew and gentile together by a common means - FAITH. Again, faith is the main theme and is the gift, since it is by faith that the gentiles are "grafted in". Acts 14:27 "Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles."

Submitted for your kind consideration.

J.D.

 

Sorry if I turned this into an Eph 2 discussion. Couldn't help myself!

Any I agree with Andy, I've learned to tone down my rehtoric to be more effective. No, really, I have.