Has no Biblical foundation

[37818]

@JonC

Temple service calculation from sunrise to sunrise (dawn to dawn).

The from sunrise to sunrise is not the Biblical teaching.

Exodus 12:18, In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

Mark 14:12, And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . . .

Mark 14:17, And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

 

[Charlie24]

@JonC

The from sunrise to sunrise is not the Biblical teaching.

Exodus 12:18, In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

Mark 14:12, And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . . .

Mark 14:17, And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

Even though the days began and ended in a sunset cycle, the Sacrificial System in the Law operated on a dawn to dawn cycle or principle.

It can be confusing but it's like placing an operating system inside another system. If that's even a fair example.

 

[Charlie24]

Here's something a little off topic but if you're not aware of it I think you would appreciate it. Just something that I remember.

There were 2 Passovers observed by the Lord yearly. The first took place on the evening of the 14th on the first month. The second took place on the evening of the 14th in the second month. Here's why there were 2.

Under no circumstances were the Jews to miss observing the Passover.

Num. 9:9-12

"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the Lord.

The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it."

 

[Charlie24]

Here's something a little off topic but if you're not aware of it I think you would appreciate it. Just something that I remember.

There were 2 Passovers observed by the Lord yearly. The first took place on the evening of the 14th on the first month. The second took place on the evening of the 14th in the second month. Here's why there were 2.

Under no circumstances were the Jews to miss observing the Passover.

Num. 9:9-12

"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the Lord.

The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it."

If one did not observe the Passover as commanded it was the loss of one's soul. There was no excuse, just as there is no excuse today for ignoring the finished work of Christ.

Num. 9:13

"But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the Lord in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin."

 

[JonC]

@JonC

The from sunrise to sunrise is not the Biblical teaching.

Exodus 12:18, In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

Mark 14:12, And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . . .

Mark 14:17, And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

None of the passages you provide support your claim. And, I am not saying how it should have been. I am simply stating how it was.

The problem is you make the crucifixion a myth rather than a historical event by removing it from actual history.

History proves that practices differed among these sects. History informs us that the passover killed outside of Jerusalm was not the Temple Passover.

The question is what we do with those facts.

You ignore them, and in so doing you create a myth out of a real historical event, the most significant historical event known to man.

I am interested in reality, what really occurred a couple thousand years ago. I want to "see" what the eyewitness saw. This means I do not have the luxury of creating a idealistic myth divorced from history because I believe the crucifixion is a real historical event.

 

[JonC]

The issue is these sects did not ignore Scripture, but they had different practices (and interpretations).

The Sadduccees and Pharisees both observed the water libations as prescribed by God. But because they interpreted the instruction differently their practices were different. The people sided with the Pharisees but they did not control the Temple.

Think of Christianity. We have different sects, different interpretations, different practices although we share the same instructions.

 

[37818]

.

Even though the days began and ended in a sunset cycle, the Sacrificial System in the Law operated on a dawn to dawn cycle or principle.

What passage of the Law explains the dawn to dawn sacrifice system? The Jewish calendar dates remain evening to evening.

 

[JonC]

If one did not observe the Passover as commanded it was the loss of one's soul.

I think the issue was more a diffetence in interpretation about how it was commanded. Each sect thought they had the right interpretation. Each believed they were correct (sounds familiar).

Look at the Temple practices just 150 years before Jesus' birth. The priests worshipped, and encouraged the worship of, Zeus in the Temple with the idea in their hearts they were really worshipping God.

Find that provision in the Bible. It is not there. If we use the method @37818 uses this never happened because it is forbidden in Exodus.

But it did happen, led to a revolt and the Hasmonean Dynasty. It created the environment where one sect of Jews were looking for a messiah that met their expectations and another sect that sought political power and a relationship with Rome. It led to the circumstances within which God ordained to being His Messiah.


I believe we have to make Scripture as it comes, and with the acvounts offered in the New Testament we need to consider them eyewitness accounts of what these people observed. We are talking about real events occurring in time, not a myth based on how we think things should have been. Scripture calls out "Come and See!".

 

[Charlie24]

.
What passage of the Law explains the dawn to dawn sacrifice system? The Jewish calendar dates remain evening to evening.

It's based on the Sacrificial System not having any part with nighttime activities, that's pagan.

It's observed from dawn to dawn or sunrise to sunrise.

 

[37818]

The problem is you make the crucifixion a myth rather than a historical event by removing it from actual history.

I didn't. Extra Biblical Christianity has done this.

 

[JonC]

Even though the days began and ended in a sunset cycle, the Sacrificial System in the Law operated on a dawn to dawn cycle or principle.

It can be confusing but it's like placing an operating system inside another system. If that's even a fair example.

Exactly!!!!!

 

[Charlie24]

It's based on the Sacrificial System not having any part with nighttime activities, that's pagan.

It's observed from dawn to dawn or sunrise to sunrise.

The days begin at evening after sunset, whereas the Sacrificial System sets itself apart in that it begins at dawn or sunrise with the first sacrifice around 9am or so.

But this is not direct a point as JonC has brought up.

 

[37818]

It's based on the Sacrificial System not having any part with nighttime activities, that's pagan.

It's observed from dawn to dawn or sunrise to sunrise.

". . . in the evening he cometh with the twelve. Mark 14:17.

". . . now when the even was come, . . . . Mark 15:42.

A matter of NT history.

 

[Charlie24]

I think the issue was more a diffetence in interpretation about how it was commanded. Each sect thought they had the right interpretation. Each believed they were correct (sounds familiar).

Look at the Temple practices just 150 years before Jesus' birth. The priests worshipped, and encouraged the worship of, Zeus in the Temple with the idea in their hearts they were really worshipping God.

Find that provision in the Bible. It is not there. If we use the method @37818 uses this never happened because it is forbidden in Exodus.

But it did happen, led to a revolt and the Hasmonean Dynasty. It created the environment where one sect of Jews were looking for a messiah that met their expectations and another sect that sought political power and a relationship with Rome. It led to the circumstances within which God ordained to being His Messiah.


I believe we have to make Scripture as it comes, and with the acvounts offered in the New Testament we need to consider them eyewitness accounts of what these people observed. We are talking about real events occurring in time, not a myth based on how we think things should have been. Scripture calls out "Come and See!".

Yes, I agree! I was going to give him an example of misinterpretation between Mark and John concerning the timing of the activities of the Sacrificial System at Passover.

But then the 2 Passovers came to memory and I went with that.

 

[JonC]

". . . in the evening he cometh with the twelve. Mark 14:17.

". . . now when the even was come, . . . . Mark 15:42.

A matter of NT history.

I think the issue is nobody is contradicting those passages.

You determined a timeline based on ancient Jewish sects observing the Law perfectly, in a unified practice, and with an identical interpretation. That is a flawed assumption because we know it is false (we know in reality it did not occur as you describe).

History (real events) allows that Jesus could have easily been traveling to Jerusalm when the Passover was being killed and been crucified when the Passover was being killed (if based on what was actually occurring at the time and observed by the Disciples).

This does not mean your timeline cannot be correct. But it does mean that it may be incorrect.

 

[Charlie24]

". . . in the evening he cometh with the twelve. Mark 14:17.

". . . now when the even was come, . . . . Mark 15:42.

A matter of NT history.

Your interpretation on those verses, as in the last thread, depend on when the Sabbath High Day fell that week.

In John 19:31 he tells beyond a doubt that Sabbath in question was a High Day, it was the first day of Unleavened Bread.

 

[Charlie24]

Your interpretation on those verses, as in the last thread, depend on when the Sabbath High Day fell that week.

In John 19:31 he tells beyond a doubt that Sabbath in question was a High Day, it was the first day of Unleavened Bread.

Going back to JonC point on tradition and how they interpreted the 2 Sabbaths that week, and what they actually did is unknown.

So we are not interpreting the info from the 4 authors the way the Sanhedrin did. Everything we process comes to a dead end.

We simply don't have enough info, and I personally think the Lord intended it that way.

 

[37818]

In John 19:31 he tells beyond a doubt that Sabbath in question was a High Day, it was the first day of Unleavened Bread.

We disagree.
Mark 14:12. Was the 14th of Nisan, ". . . the first day of unleavened bread, . . . " Per Exodus 12:18, ". . . In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, . . . ."
We need to address this as to how we are disagreeing.
And this being the whole day before His crucifixion

 

[Charlie24]

We disagree.
Mark 14:12. Was the 14th of Nisan, ". . . the first day of unleavened bread, . . . " Per Exodus 12:18, ". . . In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, . . . ."
We need to address this as to how we are disagreeing.

Yes, we disagree. The 14th of Nisan is preparation day for the first day of Unleavened Bread.

The 14th, preparation day, ended at sunset and the first day of unleavened Bread began marking the 15th.

Christ died on preparation day, clearly stated in the Gospels. It was the 14th of Nisan.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, we disagree. The 14th of Nisan is preparation day for the first day of Unleavened Bread.

The 14th, preparation day, ended at sunset and the first day of unleavened Bread began marking the 15th.

Christ died on preparation day, clearly stated in the Gospels. It was the 14th of Nisan.

You don't need to look any further than John 19:31.

They were placing Christ in the tomb and the Sabbath was the next day, the High Day, the first day of Unleavened Bread, the 15th.