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has The Gentile Church Misunderstand pauline Theology?
- Thread starter DaChaser1
- Start date
beameup
Member
Paul's theology matured as the Holy Spirit revealed it to him. Standard procedure at first was for Paul to go to the Synagogue
and preach to the Jews. The mature theology revealed to Paul by the Holy Spirit can be found in the prison epistles.
Ephesians 3:8-9
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
who created all things by Jesus Christ
The most common mistake among Gentile believers is applying the Hebrew Epistles and the Gospels to "the Church".
While there are valuable principles contained therein, as in the Old Testament as well, they are NOT addressed to the Gentile Church.
You will be forever confused if you treat all Scripture as being equally applicable. If you are a Gentile, then Paul is your apostle.
and preach to the Jews. The mature theology revealed to Paul by the Holy Spirit can be found in the prison epistles.
Ephesians 3:8-9
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
who created all things by Jesus Christ
The most common mistake among Gentile believers is applying the Hebrew Epistles and the Gospels to "the Church".
While there are valuable principles contained therein, as in the Old Testament as well, they are NOT addressed to the Gentile Church.
You will be forever confused if you treat all Scripture as being equally applicable. If you are a Gentile, then Paul is your apostle.
If you're Tom Wright...then yes.
I think there is a lot that the study of Second Temple Judaism has to offer the total development of Pauline theology. Since too many people see Paul as a white, western thinker we have lost much of the power behind his writings. As the continued developments of the Qumranic communities are showing there are maany layers to the theological fruit to be peeled back as we get closer to the heart of the thing.
This is why I'm not terribly vexed by the New Perspectives issue (which btw, you've raised before) but would rather focus on what we can glean together in our studies. Paul's Judaistic setting is vital to understanding issues, such as justification, in light of the covenantal matrix he is working through. Well I've said enough. Cheerio!
beameup
Member
This section simply reinforces the fact that God was doing something NEW, something that had been HIDDEN,
something that was revealed only to PAUL. Prior to Paul, "salvation is of the Jews". In this present time of the Gentile Church
"salvation is of the Gentiles". See the difference? Jews must abandon their "religion" and come over to the Gentile Church
to now be saved.... NOT the other way around.
The Hebrew Apostles continued the tradition of traveling to the Synagogues
of Asia Minor. The Hebrew Epistles are written to Jews (genetic Israelites).
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Although there are some protestants that base their theology on Leviticus, it will lead to error. The same goes for the Gospels.
The same goes for the Hebrew Epistles. The same goes for the Tenakh. The same goes for the Torah.
Inspired? Yes
Valuable? Yes
Are there "Applications"? Yes
Can "Edification" be found? Yes
Is it foundational for doctrine? No
Paul is your Apostle, your "foundation" is in Paul's Epistles
The idea of treating all scripture equally can easily be demonstrated to be faulty, as the Seventh Day Adventists use all scripture equally
for their doctrine. The JWs use "all scripture". The Mormons use "all scripture", etc.
something that was revealed only to PAUL. Prior to Paul, "salvation is of the Jews". In this present time of the Gentile Church
"salvation is of the Gentiles". See the difference? Jews must abandon their "religion" and come over to the Gentile Church
to now be saved.... NOT the other way around.
The Hebrew Apostles continued the tradition of traveling to the Synagogues
of Asia Minor. The Hebrew Epistles are written to Jews (genetic Israelites).
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Although there are some protestants that base their theology on Leviticus, it will lead to error. The same goes for the Gospels.
The same goes for the Hebrew Epistles. The same goes for the Tenakh. The same goes for the Torah.
Inspired? Yes
Valuable? Yes
Are there "Applications"? Yes
Can "Edification" be found? Yes
Is it foundational for doctrine? No
Paul is your Apostle, your "foundation" is in Paul's Epistles
The idea of treating all scripture equally can easily be demonstrated to be faulty, as the Seventh Day Adventists use all scripture equally
for their doctrine. The JWs use "all scripture". The Mormons use "all scripture", etc.
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Beameup,
You have been mis-led into a falsehood.
It is a very old heresy.
One which goes back to the time of the Apostles, and gained enough momentum to become one of the more prominently documented CULTS of the first and second centuries.
Just do a Google search of "The Cult of Marcion", and see if it looks familiar to what somone has been teaching you.
Peter warned of it;
2 PETER 3:15-17 (KJV) –“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
So did the other Apostles.
I am very aware of the false doctrine this is, and I have often dealt with the apostate cult that is teaching it today.
These, like all falsifiers of the word, are servants of the adversary, some serve knowingly, some are simply mis-led.
You have been mis-led into a falsehood.
It is a very old heresy.
One which goes back to the time of the Apostles, and gained enough momentum to become one of the more prominently documented CULTS of the first and second centuries.
Just do a Google search of "The Cult of Marcion", and see if it looks familiar to what somone has been teaching you.
Peter warned of it;
2 PETER 3:15-17 (KJV) –“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
So did the other Apostles.
I am very aware of the false doctrine this is, and I have often dealt with the apostate cult that is teaching it today.
These, like all falsifiers of the word, are servants of the adversary, some serve knowingly, some are simply mis-led.
Even Marcion included the Gospel of Luke in his "cannon".
Something this modern day cult does not do.
Ask them why Luke, who was a student of Paul, did not get the same message they claim is true.
You won't get an answer that makes any sense.
They seek to subvert the Gospel message entirely, they claim that even the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself do not apply to the Church today.
Slippery bunch, these Hyper-Dispensationalists, these followers of Bullinger, Stam, Baker, and Les Nesbit.
They vary greatly on where in Acts to split Paul off from the Mission, this was because Bullinger, Stam, and Baker had to make a lot of adjustments to their spurious doctrine whenever some stubborn old Baptist poked holes into it.
The slip into the Baptist church, they haunt the Internet, and can slip into a Baptist discussion forum.
They most assuredly are not Baptists.
Something this modern day cult does not do.
Ask them why Luke, who was a student of Paul, did not get the same message they claim is true.
You won't get an answer that makes any sense.
They seek to subvert the Gospel message entirely, they claim that even the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself do not apply to the Church today.
Slippery bunch, these Hyper-Dispensationalists, these followers of Bullinger, Stam, Baker, and Les Nesbit.
They vary greatly on where in Acts to split Paul off from the Mission, this was because Bullinger, Stam, and Baker had to make a lot of adjustments to their spurious doctrine whenever some stubborn old Baptist poked holes into it.
The slip into the Baptist church, they haunt the Internet, and can slip into a Baptist discussion forum.
They most assuredly are not Baptists.
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glfredrick
New Member
beameup
Member
I'm glad that you picked this passage to quote
But not only Paul's teaching, but they formed heresies from "other scriptures" as well. Gnosticism is one result of the UNSAVED
trying to "understand" the scriptures. I see a lot of Gnosticism right here.
Peter states that those who he was writing to "knew these things". They understood Pauline doctrine [as I do] and were not falling for the "error of the wicked" [which I am not also].
The real heresy of today is returning to the Catholic so-called "Church Fathers" as if they are "Gospel" rather than depending upon the Holy Spirit.
For reference, look how quickly the once exemplary Ephesian church "left their first love". Heresy crept into the Church long before any of
Constantine's "church fathers", and it just went downhill from there.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [APOSTASY] first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;[/I] [FALSE CHRIST] - 2 Tim 2:3
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe the LIE: - 2 Tim 2:11
The Holy Spirit warns us TODAY that we are in the APOSTASY that will lead to "the LIE".
"He that hath an ear"
Here is where the heresy comes in. Those who are unable to "understand" Pauline doctrine are the ones who fell into heresy.
But not only Paul's teaching, but they formed heresies from "other scriptures" as well. Gnosticism is one result of the UNSAVED
trying to "understand" the scriptures. I see a lot of Gnosticism right here.
Peter states that those who he was writing to "knew these things". They understood Pauline doctrine [as I do] and were not falling for the "error of the wicked" [which I am not also].
The real heresy of today is returning to the Catholic so-called "Church Fathers" as if they are "Gospel" rather than depending upon the Holy Spirit.
For reference, look how quickly the once exemplary Ephesian church "left their first love". Heresy crept into the Church long before any of
Constantine's "church fathers", and it just went downhill from there.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [APOSTASY] first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;[/I] [FALSE CHRIST] - 2 Tim 2:3
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe the LIE: - 2 Tim 2:11
The Holy Spirit warns us TODAY that we are in the APOSTASY that will lead to "the LIE".
"He that hath an ear"
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beameup
Member
I have no idea where you get your information.
I have no idea who Marcion is/was (and frankly don't really care).
I also have no idea who the other people you mentioned are... never heard of them.
As far as Luke is concerned, Luke's entire premise in writing his two gospels, Luke & Acts, was that
these documents were to be presented before Caesar's court in Paul's defense.
You don't waste Caesar's time with irrelevant information unless you want to face serious consequences.
Any first semester Bible college student would know this.
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Beameup,
"Those who are unable to "understand" Pauline doctrine are the ones who fell into heresy. "
Never have I seen one of you HYPER-Dispensationlists make a truer comment, but I know that your deception blinds you to the fact that this speaks of you.
If I understood correctly this forum is supposed to be for Baptists.
You may pretend to be one, but you certainly are no Baptist.
A wolf in sheeps clothing is closer to the mark, and one out to devour the flock.
Whether you be decieved, or seek to decieve others, the false doctrine you spread here, and I am sure you spread elsewhere, is pure evil, filth.
This forum is concerned with "Baptist Theology" not the study of "Scatology"
You should look for a site concerned with the preservation of [offensive language deleted]
A very basic thing you do not seem to grasp is "Hebrew" is a language.
There were no "Hebrew Apostles".
There were "Jewish Apostles", in fact there were 11 to start with. Some of them may have spoke Hebrew, but at the time of Christ's Earthly ministry, most of them probably did not.
Paul, on the other hand, coming from an educated background (Pharisee), would have known Hebrew, Clasic Greek, and the more common languges in use at the time.
I wonder did the falsifier of the Word of Truth, who led you down the road you are on bother to tell you just who some of the missionaries Paul wrote to at Ephesus were?
They were Jewish.
The Apostle John himself ended up in Ephesus. He was Jewish too.
My Lord and Savior the Lord Jesus Christ was Jewish too.
I read your comments about "Hebrew Apostles", and the implications you make that you somehow think Paul was not Jewish.
That too is just more of the same sort of nonsense [personal attack edited]
"Those who are unable to "understand" Pauline doctrine are the ones who fell into heresy. "
Never have I seen one of you HYPER-Dispensationlists make a truer comment, but I know that your deception blinds you to the fact that this speaks of you.
If I understood correctly this forum is supposed to be for Baptists.
You may pretend to be one, but you certainly are no Baptist.
A wolf in sheeps clothing is closer to the mark, and one out to devour the flock.
Whether you be decieved, or seek to decieve others, the false doctrine you spread here, and I am sure you spread elsewhere, is pure evil, filth.
This forum is concerned with "Baptist Theology" not the study of "Scatology"
You should look for a site concerned with the preservation of [offensive language deleted]
A very basic thing you do not seem to grasp is "Hebrew" is a language.
There were no "Hebrew Apostles".
There were "Jewish Apostles", in fact there were 11 to start with. Some of them may have spoke Hebrew, but at the time of Christ's Earthly ministry, most of them probably did not.
Paul, on the other hand, coming from an educated background (Pharisee), would have known Hebrew, Clasic Greek, and the more common languges in use at the time.
I wonder did the falsifier of the Word of Truth, who led you down the road you are on bother to tell you just who some of the missionaries Paul wrote to at Ephesus were?
They were Jewish.
The Apostle John himself ended up in Ephesus. He was Jewish too.
My Lord and Savior the Lord Jesus Christ was Jewish too.
I read your comments about "Hebrew Apostles", and the implications you make that you somehow think Paul was not Jewish.
That too is just more of the same sort of nonsense [personal attack edited]
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glfredrick
New Member
Sure are a lot of weird doctrinal positions coming out on the board these days, and every one of the ones who hold them are suggesting that any biblical response is "personal attack."
Almost too concentrated and too consistent an effort to be accidental.
Almost too concentrated and too consistent an effort to be accidental.
Is it possible for the uninitiates to get some google links or something to make sense of what is being discussed in this thread?
It is an old heresy that has attacked the Baptist church for many years. There are a lot of articles which have been written, but one of the best is also one of the oldest, and it is very much hated by these folks.
It has been a number of years since I read it, but look for a booklet named "Wrongly Dividing The Word of Truth" it was written by H. A. Ironside back in the twenties, and it is the best work ever done on the Hyper or Ultra Dispensationalist cult, that nowadays goes under cover with names like "Grace Movement" and about a half dozen others that sound real good.
It is a group offering to help you "understand" your bible. The first step for doing this, according to them, is to ignore most of the bible, including all four of the the Gospel accounts, and anything written by Peter, James, or John.
If this is a real Baptist site, the article above will enable any Baptist here to spot these workers of heresy, these teachers of false doctrine, and if the moderators are real Baptists those falsifiers of God's truth should be banned from a site that is claiming to be for "Baptists Only.
If it is not a real Baptist site, then it is just a sounding board where the new initiates to this practice for their mission work against the Baptist church, and cut their teeth on the real Baptists fool enough to let them.
I will wait and see, before I venture forth here again, recommend same for any other real Baptists.
It has been a number of years since I read it, but look for a booklet named "Wrongly Dividing The Word of Truth" it was written by H. A. Ironside back in the twenties, and it is the best work ever done on the Hyper or Ultra Dispensationalist cult, that nowadays goes under cover with names like "Grace Movement" and about a half dozen others that sound real good.
It is a group offering to help you "understand" your bible. The first step for doing this, according to them, is to ignore most of the bible, including all four of the the Gospel accounts, and anything written by Peter, James, or John.
If this is a real Baptist site, the article above will enable any Baptist here to spot these workers of heresy, these teachers of false doctrine, and if the moderators are real Baptists those falsifiers of God's truth should be banned from a site that is claiming to be for "Baptists Only.
If it is not a real Baptist site, then it is just a sounding board where the new initiates to this practice for their mission work against the Baptist church, and cut their teeth on the real Baptists fool enough to let them.
I will wait and see, before I venture forth here again, recommend same for any other real Baptists.
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Basically I agree with everything you have said in this thread as a whole and admire your willingness to call it out as you see it. I think your analysis of Marcianism is on target. Barry Horner would call it "Marcian lite" or a "tinge of gnosticism". We are not talking about full blown Marcian or gnostics but rather those who are headed in that direction.
To say that Paul "matured" in his theology or grew in his understanding of the gentile involvement in the church naturally leads (in my opinion) to the conclusion that some Scripture is more inspired than other Scripture, that some large portions of the Bible are no longer in effect, that Jehovah has changed his mind on certain matters or that once a prophecy is (in the opinion of the individual) fufilled, the essential teaching of that prophetic scripture is of no further value.
I of course do not see it that way as Paul himself stated that "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16. In Daniel ch 10-12 it makes clear that the reason why the ungodly gentile nations hate the Israelites is because of the covenant. A good question to ask is what covenant? The reformed among us will answer the covenant of grace, the dispensationalist would say (correctly I believe) the Abrahamic, Davidic and New covenants.
If a student of Scripture and or theology who happens to fall in the reformed camp were to for one moment take the dispensational position and apply it to the situation today in the middle east, they will quickly have an answer to the question why is the bulk of the gentile middle east is obsessed with ridding the region of the tiny by comparison county called Israel. I say this not to imply that modern Israel is fufilment of prophecy, it may or may not be, but rather to make a point that Satan does not know if modern Israel is prophecy fufulled either and he is not taking any chances that it might be. This is in my opinion the reason why the nations cannot leave the Jews in Palestine alone. Their master has placed it in their hearts the urge to rid the region of them. Why? I believe it is because of the covenant(s).
Not to head off topic but I have said many times on this forum that it is ironic that the reformed claim Sola Scriptura but look to the historic creeds and the writings of the 16th century theologians to get their answer to doctrinal questions. I would submit that the correct source of this knowledge should be the Scriptures alone.
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thomas15
Well-Known Member
My answer to the OP question is yes, the gentile church has, is, and will most likely continue to misunderstand Pauline theology. Vast segments of the body of Christ hold the view (in my opinion) that in order for Jews to be saved, they must become as Gentiles, give up their Jewishness. I don't see any of the Apostles or Jesus himself having done this. What was Paul doing in Jerusalem when he was arrested? Good question.
We (Jew/Gentile) are saved by confessing our need and trusting in the resurrected Savior Jesus as per the clear teaching of the Bible, not because we are Jew or Gentile or because we participate in religious ceremonies nice as they might be.
We (Jew/Gentile) are saved by confessing our need and trusting in the resurrected Savior Jesus as per the clear teaching of the Bible, not because we are Jew or Gentile or because we participate in religious ceremonies nice as they might be.
I'm sure this is what beameup means by "Hebrew Apostles":
6 But from those who were reputed to be somewhat (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth not man`s person)-- they, I say, who were of repute imparted nothing to me:
7 but contrariwise, when they saw that I had been intrusted with the gospel of the uncircumcision, even as Peter with the gospel of the circumcision
8 (for he that wrought for Peter unto the apostleship of the circumcision wrought for me also unto the Gentiles);
9 and when they perceived the grace that was given unto me, James and Cephas and John, they who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship, that we should go unto the Gentiles, and they unto the circumcision; Gal 2
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glfredrick
New Member
No, the Jews do not have to give up their Jewishness, and no, neither do the Gentiles need to adopt Jewishness, and I do not believe the Scriptures say that...
The Gentile church doesn't misunderstand that at all, save that there have ALWAYS (even during the writing of Scripture) been those who have said otherwise. But the writers of Scripture, especially Paul and the writer of Hebrews, were quick to correct that misunderstanding.
The Jews MUST believe in Christ and be born-again-from-above, the same as EVERY person, but they do not have to walk away from their circumcision or other Jewish rites. They do have to realize that faith is the key -- as always -- to salvation, so says God via the writer of Hebrews where he laid out this precise issue with clarity.
Those who were saved prior to the advent of Jesus born of a virgin on earth were saved in the same manner as those post Christ -- by their faith in Messiah.
thomas15
Well-Known Member
To be clear, I make my observations in the context of the historically dominant church position known as reformed, covenant and or replacement theology.
Isn't there also a tendancy within the reformed camp to see scriptures through the lense of replacement/fulfillent theology, and thus have things "spiritualise", and thus at times force misunderstanding into some Pauline texts?