Healings? Educate me!

[thegospelgeek]

I have family who insist that God wants us all healthy etc. Sorta half of the health and prosperity movement. I haven't really given it a great deal of study, so I thought we could debate this question;

Does Jesus work at the cross include our illness as well as sins?

Why or why not. I expect lots of scripture and will be keeping score. Convince me to understand one way or the other.

 

[Darrenss1]

I have family who insist that God wants us all healthy etc. Sorta half of the health and prosperity movement. I haven't really given it a great deal of study, so I thought we could debate this question;

Does Jesus work at the cross include our illness as well as sins?

Why or why not. I expect lots of scripture and will be keeping score. Convince me to understand one way or the other.

I'm pretty familiar with teachings regarding this subject, I came out of a pentacostal church that taught this and that men had healing gifts (of the Holy Spirit), all sickness came from either people's own sins or from demon spirits. Basically in order to get healed one must repent of sins, exercise faith in God to be healed or cast out the demon with the correct name that is causing the illness/sickness/disease...etc Any of that sound familiar? Anyway the teaching says that it is against God's will for ANY christian to be sick, therefore God ALWAYS wants to have all christians in good health.

Is this the same teaching as that family or is it different? Hard to keep up with all the doctrines that go around these days.

Darren

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jump in front of a bus & we will arrange to have a Pentecostal minister there to treat you.....Up for it!?!

 

[Jedi Knight]

Problem is that if you follow that "always healthy" to it's logical conclusion we would never get sick and die....... unless there is a increasing number of healthy believers being hit by buses!

 

[Darrenss1]

Problem is that if you follow that "always healthy" to it's logical conclusion we would never get sick and die....... unless there is a increasing number of healthy believers being hit by buses!

Even when I was trying to follow that doctrine myself at the time, it just didn't make sense to me. You can't tell me you know the "spiritual" reason why someone is sick? They actually had a healing chart, believe it or not, for this sickness cast out this demon, or the reason for this sickness is this sin..etc

Yet when the leaders would get sick or those approved by the leaders they would say that their sickness was an attack of the devil, the same sickness for someone else would be said to be the result of their sins, unbelief, rebellion...etc They just made things up as they went. My own pastor claimed he had a healing gift, yet I never witnessed one single visual miracle where he layed his hands on someone and there was an instant healing. Not that God couldn't do it if God willed to do.

I never heard so many silly excuses for lack of miracle healings, usually its the fault of the sick person for not getting healed.

Its so obvious the further you get away from the bible the more you need a guru to explains things. :smilewinkgrin:

Darren

 

[SolaSaint]

I heard a guy say today on some radio program, "how many 120 year old faith healers do you know?

 

[Darrenss1]

I have family who insist that God wants us all healthy etc. Sorta half of the health and prosperity movement. I haven't really given it a great deal of study, so I thought we could debate this question;

You should ask this family the ways in which God will "heal" all those whom God does not want to be sick. Its not just a matter of, you are sick, you pray and God heals you but the doctrines they build around it, such as IF you first stop doing this, believe this, do this than God will heal you. In other cases the faith healer claims to have a the gift of healing and its more like, they lay hands on you cast out the demons and bingo you are healed. Other times some charismatic churches are claiming people are getting healed just by being present in one of their services. I've also been told and read stories that some charismatic churches claim they see angels spreading healing dust or whatever and its really the angels healing people.

Some of these stories are so fanciful, other times the testimonies of these healings are doubtful and certainly not biblical at all. I always think that miracles go hand in hand with accurate theology, so if a church doesn't teach the truth or has noticable false doctrine, their healing testimonies if any should be treated with caution.. Even the Catholic church makes healing claims.

Darren

 

[Tom Butler]

The scriptural basis for faith healing cited by its advocates is Isaiah 53:4:

Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.

It's called the doctrine of Healing in the Atonement. That is, Jesus died not only for our sins on the cross, but also our sicknesses. And the same faith that saves us can also heal us.

the KJV rendering does not appear to support that view. However, other translations do seem to.

NIV:

Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

And Matthew, led by the Spirit, rendered Isaiah 53:4 as follows:

Matthew 8:17 KJV:

Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses.

So, the matter is settled right? Well, not quite.

Let's look at the context surrounding Matthew's rendering. Here are verses 16-17

When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils, and he cast our the spirit with his word, and healed all that were sick. 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by isaiah the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

This passage tells us that Isaiah 53:4 was fulfilled in the evening, in Capernaum (8:5). A specific time and place. Jesus was alive.

So, Matthew, led by the Spirit, applied Isaiah 53:4 as being fulfilled in Jesus' life, not his death.

Thus falls the doctrine of Healing in the Atonement.

Another flaw: If healing is in the atonement, then all that is required is the faith of the sick person--no faith healers required.

And still another: If one has the gift of healing, the faith of the sick person is not required. The healer cannot ever fail.

I've wondered why those who claim to have the healing gift don't clean out the hospitals.

Now, I believe in divine healing. I believe that God sometimes heals in response to prayer (but not always).

 

[Tom Butler]

I am hesitant to say that those who claim the gift of healing are fakes. They may not be. They may in fact be exercising (or invoking) a supernatural power.

The question is, what is the source of that power? If it not of God, there is only one other source, is there not?

 

[Tom Butler]

Okay, Butler, what about I Peter 2:24?

...who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

What about "by whose stripes you were healed?

Read the entire verse. It was our sins he bore on the tree, the cross. The atonement brings spiritual healing.

If physical healing is, in fact, in the atonement, no Christian would ever get sick? Further, one cannot hold that healing in the atonement is for the lost. One would have to become a Christian before one could be healed.

 

[Jedi Knight]

The scriptural basis for faith healing cited by its advocates is Isaiah 53:4:

Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.

And by his stripes we are healed? Did ya forget their favorite?

 

[Tom Butler]

And by his stripes we are healed? Did ya forget their favorite?

Great minds think alike. While you were posting your question, I was writing about that exact subject. It's post #10.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Tom when I get tossed this verse I point out two places in the New Testament. 1 Peter 2:24-25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. "ANSWER" For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Again in John 12:37-40 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again,

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should HEAL them.
Notice what the healing is about here....spiritual!

 

[Darrenss1]

Notice what the healing is about here....spiritual!

Excellent point!! :thumbs:

Darren

 

[thegospelgeek]

I'm pretty familiar with teachings regarding this subject, I came out of a pentacostal church that taught this and that men had healing gifts (of the Holy Spirit), all sickness came from either people's own sins or from demon spirits. Basically in order to get healed one must repent of sins, exercise faith in God to be healed or cast out the demon with the correct name that is causing the illness/sickness/disease...etc Any of that sound familiar? Anyway the teaching says that it is against God's will for ANY christian to be sick, therefore God ALWAYS wants to have all christians in good health.

Is this the same teaching as that family or is it different? Hard to keep up with all the doctrines that go around these days.

Darren

Very close. he attends a Baptist church but comes from a pentecostal family. Dead on about the part that God wants everyone to be healthy. I'm looking for scripture to either support or refute the doctrine.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Anyone arguing for healing in the atonement?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Even when I was trying to follow that doctrine myself at the time, it just didn't make sense to me. You can't tell me you know the "spiritual" reason why someone is sick? They actually had a healing chart, believe it or not, for this sickness cast out this demon, or the reason for this sickness is this sin..etc

Yet when the leaders would get sick or those approved by the leaders they would say that their sickness was an attack of the devil, the same sickness for someone else would be said to be the result of their sins, unbelief, rebellion...etc They just made things up as they went. My own pastor claimed he had a healing gift, yet I never witnessed one single visual miracle where he layed his hands on someone and there was an instant healing. Not that God couldn't do it if God willed to do.

I never heard so many silly excuses for lack of miracle healings, usually its the fault of the sick person for not getting healed.

Its so obvious the further you get away from the bible the more you need a guru to explains things. :smilewinkgrin:

Darren

Darren...... Perhaps you should read Martyn Lloyd-Jones "Joy Unspeakable" in a nutshell the author will stand on the side of gifts being entirely within the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit but he will punch holes in all the hocus pocus & show you how to discern real Spiritual activity vs BS. Keep your bible handy because he tests everything through scripture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Anyone arguing for healing in the atonement?

I feel it is as possible today as it was in Acts if thats what your asking. But I do not believe in the "Namers & Claimers" & their line of BS. Filter everything through Scripture, test all & be skeptical of anyone who is leading naive people off the cliff with signs & wonders.

 

[Tom Butler]

Again, one cannot have it both ways.

If you have the gift of healing, you can heal someone, anyone, anytime.
Faith is not required on anyone's part, not even yours. This is supposed to be a gift of the Holy Spirit, sovereignly given. Healing in the atonement is not required.

If, however, you invoke healing in the atonement as the basis of divine healing, the same principle applies as in spiritual healing. By grace are ye saved, through faith; by grace are ye healed, through faith, etc. Here, it's not necessary for a preacher to have the gift of healing. All that is required is your faith.

To sum up: If Benny Hinn can heal you, you don't need faith.
If you can be healed by faith, you don't need Benny Hinn.

Does that mean we shouldn't pray for the sick? Nope, we should.
I have no hesitancy at all praying for God to heal someone. Jesus knew he would give Bartimaeus his sight, but made him ask for it, anyway.

Sometimes the answer to a prayer for healing is No. Paul asked God repeatedly to take away his thorn in the flesh, to no avail.

But, sometimes, praise God, the answer from God is, I will.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom when I get tossed this verse I point out two places in the New Testament. 1 Peter 2:24-25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. "ANSWER" For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Again in John 12:37-40 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again,

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should HEAL them.
Notice what the healing is about here....spiritual!

I had forgotten about John 12:40. Thanks for the reminder.

Maybe we ought to start another thread about John's quote of Isaiah 6, that God blinded and hardened people so they COULDN'T believe. Let's don't divert this thread, though.