Healthy womb: Fetal right?

[Gina B]

Do unborn children have the right to as healthy place to grow and develop as possible?

Is it wrong for a woman to bear children when she knows there's a strong possibility of passing on a horrible illness to her child?

This seems to be the ethical situation facing the women in this story: http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/namibia-illegally-sterilized-hiv-infected-women

I am especially interested in hearing the justifications for saying "they should not be sterilized" from those who say all forms of birth control are wrong and people should continue to bear as many children as the Lord allows.

 

[freeatlast]

Do unborn children have the right to as healthy place to grow and develop as possible?

Is it wrong for a woman to bear children when she knows there's a strong possibility of passing on a horrible illness to her child?

This seems to be the ethical situation facing the women in this story: http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/namibia-illegally-sterilized-hiv-infected-women

I am especially interested in hearing the justifications for saying "they should not be sterilized" from those who say all forms of birth control are wrong and people should continue to bear as many children as the Lord allows.

I know of no woman who cannot pass on some genetic error or even some medical illness'. So if these women should be sterilized then so should every woman. By the way you are suggesting some type of communism or dictatorship thta has nothing to do with the freedoms and liberties of this nation. You are trying to play God by using the government. I would ask you is there any biblical grounds or suggestion that we should sterilize or forbid people to procreate because of medical reasons?

 

[Gina B]

FAL, there's a reason I put it in question form but at the moment, my answer is yes. I do think the Biblical expectation that we cause harm to nobody may also cover procreating with the knowledge that we're going to have to take multiple antiretroviral drugs in an attempt to not pass on HIV to the baby, with the possibility that it may not work.

To further go on the concept of causing no harm, HIV can be passed through breast milk, so now there's another problem that can affect health...having to use artificial milk or using milk from other parents.

So now you have a person who can't provide a healthy womb and in this story, living in a third world country, unable to nurse, likely unable to have access to decent health care. What would you use to prove that the HIV infected women of this country should keep having children?

 

[freeatlast]

FAL, there's a reason I put it in question form but at the moment, my answer is yes. I do think the Biblical expectation that we cause harm to nobody may also cover procreating with the knowledge that we're going to have to take multiple antiretroviral drugs in an attempt to not pass on HIV to the baby, with the possibility that it may not work.

To further go on the concept of causing no harm, HIV can be passed through breast milk, so now there's another problem that can affect health...having to use artificial milk or using milk from other parents.

So now you have a person who can't provide a healthy womb and in this story, living in a third world country, unable to nurse, likely unable to have access to decent health care. What would you use to prove that the HIV infected women of this country should keep having children?

If I was a communist at heart I would agree with you, but I stand for the constitution with its liberties and freedoms. There is no call for what you are suggesting in scripture. So yes if a woman wanted to have children who is HIV positive I would not seek to prevent her as would those who seek governments of communism or dictatorships.
There are women who are midgets who have children from my perspective that is cruel. There are women who have certain genes in their family history and have children and pass on their condition. There is no end to what you are suggesting. So again no I do not lean in any way to what would be a communistic or dictatorship style government forbidding people to procreate. If you have some scripture showing such then provide it and I will examine your claim, but without that I have to stand with the government that I believe is based on the standards of the word of God.

I would remind you that even if the child gets the disease it can be controlled today so no way would I subscribe to this anti Christian and anti constitutional view.
As to your question about other nations I would take the word of God to them and teach them biblical abstinence until married, but I would not try and force some ungodly government practice on them.

 

[Gina B]

I must congratulate you on your repeated attempts to imply I am a communist. You did a pretty good job of not saying it totally outright. However, a little more subtlety adds more sting and increases the "interesting" factor of such posts. First-time readers may believe you to be more intelligent than less sophisticated name-calling makes you appear.

Now I'd like to invite you to join me in singing a moving rendition of Kumbaya in both English and Farsi. We can sing along at the following link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w3Lm_gu-ZY Ready, set, GO.

 

[freeatlast]

Gina many of your views have no biblical foundation and in fact many times stand against what the bible teaches. In regards to politics you have levied a standard that is only found under communism and dictatorships. NO free world nation even suggests what you are suggesting. Even if they did It simply is not an American value. I was not trying to accuse you, but rather help you see what you are suggesting so I made sure I did not directly accuse you. There was room for you to see and step way from your point of view if you did not hold to those governmental standards. However after examining everything and if you still stand on your belief knowing it goes against everything the constitution stands for and has absolutely no biblical support then I can only say is if the shoe fits wear it. I do admit sadly that people with your values are growing in number and I do believe those values will soon take over this nation.

 

[billwald]

People who support this "right" should also favor welfare programs for women and children.

 

[Sapper Woody]

I in no way advocate the government stepping in and saying who can have kids and who can't. However, I would strongly caution anyone who has a high probability of passing a disease on to a child when they are considering having a baby. I would not go so far as to say it is a sin, but would consider it to be unwise. If they are dead set on having a child, I would urge them to consider adoption.

 

[Arbo]

I in no way advocate the government stepping in and saying who can have kids and who can't. However, I would strongly caution anyone who has a high probability of passing a disease on to a child when they are considering having a baby. I would not go so far as to say it is a sin, but would consider it to be unwise. If they are dead set on having a child, I would urge them to consider adoption.

Well said, and I would add that hoping-to-be parents ought to consider the child's prospects before their own desire. It is a very hard thing to have a child who has a life of pain and dies in infancy.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Gina many of your views have no biblical foundation and in fact many times stand against what the bible teaches.

Wow! Can you support that claim, brother? How you keep getting away with this here at the BB, I don't know.

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Gina, here is my thinking.

I'm not for forced or coerced sterilization of anyone. According to the sources I read, these women were allegedly made to sign the "consent" forms while in labor. And the forms merely had acronyms for the sterilization and not an explanation.

To me, that's coercion.

I do believe in counseled sterilization for a lot of people. Not just AIDS patients. Such as those with mental faculties that would prevent them from taking care of a baby safely and even for those impoverished who have had multiple children already that they cannot care for. I also understand that counseling can turn into coercion in a split second. So after the competent counseling takes place and the person in question says, "no" - that's it.

In terms of these women in Africa - and I know that all parts of Africa are not the same - waiting until they have contracted HIV/AIDS to address this problem is too late.

Many of these women are not allowed - culturally speaking - to tell their husbands no when it comes to sex. So many of them are not allowed to participate in local politics and speak up for women in matters like these. In many places there, husbands are allowed socially to have sex with whomever they wish and the wives are confined to sex with their husbands. And for many of these young wives who become mothers at 11 and 12 and their bladders tear during labor, their husbands toss them out because they have a perpetual stink about them. They are now homeless and have no choice except to become prostitutes. So, mother-to-child transmission of HIV/AIDS is the last leg in a futile lifestyle and culture almost guarantees the disease being tranferred to the child. These women in many cases in Africa have no skills and sometimes no cultural/social right to negotiate with men when it comes to birth control, including condoms, and even consent.

And dealing with and solving the problem of mother-to-child transmission of the disease doesn't include the the engagement of men and boys. It's not their problem.

Forcing sterilization of these women is fighting the problem at the wrong end.

Yes, I understand that for the women who have already contracted the disease - something must be done. I read a tragic story online of a mother who is dying from AIDS and she has 4 children - one of which also has HIV. Her only concern as a dying African woman is who is going take care of her children.

I just think that counseling and education could help these women make an individual and competent and wise choice to agree to the sterilization. That - and until something is done about the culture - I could and would support.

 

[freeatlast]

Wow! Can you support that claim, brother? How you keep getting away with this here at the BB, I don't know.

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Yes i can certainly support it. However it means I have to go back and run through post after post and do it and I am not taking the time. Just ask her if she believes in the death penalty for one example or women teaching men as another.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Yes i can certainly support it. However it means I have to go back and run through post after post and do it and I am not taking the time. Just ask her if she believes in the death penalty for one example or women teaching men as another.

OK, she has 15,119 posts. You've mentioned two things. And you haven't mentioned her stance and how it defies the Bible.

I've "known" Gina for over a decade. She's one of the last people I would accuse of asserting non-Biblical beliefs.

 

[Gina B]

Scarlet, you're a sweetie!

I'm wondering if you, like me, see stories like this and wonder why they would encourage sterilization for women (which is pretty invasive) and not for men instead, if they truly have the interest of women at heart. I know you mentioned them not addressing men in your post, but didn't know for sure if that was part of it.

FAL, I don't know what on earth you're talking about or how my believing in the death penalty has anything to do with this. The only reason you're saved is because someone paid the death penalty for you.

If you make such a strong accusation, the right thing to do is back it up. I'm asking you to do that now.

 

[Carl B]

Gina many of your views have no biblical foundation and in fact many times stand against what the bible teaches.

When you accuse my wife of something like that, you better find the posts and link to them.

 

[freeatlast]

OK, she has 15,119 posts. You've mentioned two things. And you haven't mentioned her stance and how it defies the Bible.

I've "known" Gina for over a decade. She's one of the last people I would accuse of asserting non-Biblical beliefs.

I just gave you two. If that is not enough then do a search. I am not suggesting that she is not a friendly and nice person to know. I said she does not hold to the biblical teachings but decides which and what to hold to.
The churches are full of people like this today so she is not alone. It is like a person who claims they are pro-life and do not believe in abortion and then say except in the case of....... and of .....
Well they are not anti-abortion. They are pro abortion except in the cases of ......
The same principle applies here.

 

[freeatlast]

When you accuse my wife of something like that, you better find the posts and link to them.

Or what?

 

[Gina B]

Or what?

ROFL. I'm guessing he left the "or" part up to you, since the only repercussion of not posting it is that you look pretty silly. It's a choice. You can show yourself to be an upstanding, honest guy and take a few minutes to find the posts you say are there. I'm really surprised you're whining about having to look up the posts. Taking a little time to back up such a horrible accusation as saying I'm spreading falseness is not too much to ask. Such accusations can have terrible repercussions for the person you accuse, so it's very important to have that proof in hand. (and snipping out portions doesn't work, link to what I said in its entirety)

 

[freeatlast]

ROFL. I'm guessing he left the "or" part up to you, since the only repercussion of not posting it is that you look pretty silly. It's a choice. You can show yourself to be an upstanding, honest guy and take a few minutes to find the posts you say are there. I'm really surprised you're whining about having to look up the posts. Taking a little time to back up such a horrible accusation as saying I'm spreading falseness is not too much to ask. Such accusations can have terrible repercussions for the person you accuse, so it's very important to have that proof in hand. (and snipping out portions doesn't work, link to what I said in its entirety)

make it easy. Do you believe in the death penalty as given in scripture for murder, rape, homosexuality, adultery, bestiality, as being for today?

Do you believe that a woman can ever teach a man in church?

 

[Gina B]

*gasp*

You want me to TEACH you what I believe?!

I don't know if that's right.

Honey, do I have your permission to answer him?

 

[Scarlett O.]

make it easy. Do you believe in the death penalty as given in scripture for murder, rape, homosexuality, adultery, bestiality, as being for today?

Do you believe that a woman can ever teach a man in church?

Oops! OK, now you've got my dander up. :tonofbricks:

It is neither Gina's nor her husband's role to prove to you that she is a Bible-believing Christian.

YOU made the accusation in public. It's YOUR job to prove what you say.

It ain't Gina's to disprove it.

YOU said that most of her beliefs are non-Biblical and in that accusation you've implied a HOST of things that I don't like and that are not true.

You threw the trash out the window. It's not Gina's job to clean it up.