Featured Hebrews 11:11

Every once in a while you come across an amazing problem with translation. This once boggles the mind.

Hebrews 11:11 (NASB95) By faith even Sarah herself received [fn]ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
And the NASB footnote reads "power for the laying down of seed."​

Now take a look at the NET rendering of the very same text!

11:11 By faith, even though Sarah herself was barren and he was too old, he received the ability to procreate, because he regarded the one who had given the promise to be trustworthy.​

So we have either Sarah or Abraham receiving the ability to either "conceive" or "procreate." Now turn your eyes back to the NASB footnote, and see that normally it is the male who has or is given the ability to "throw down" seed. But where did all these "he" references come from? Not the text of the verse.

On the other hand, women do "ovulate" or if you will "throw down the egg (female seed). Thus the verse if translated according to the Greek, might read,

"Through faith even Sarah herself received the ability to ovulate [fn], and brought forth even though beyond the prime period, since she deemed the One promising faithful.
Footnote: Greek "throw down seed"​

But if we stop here, we have only addressed the tip of the shipwrecking iceberg!

The Greek word meaning "throw or cast down" is katabolEn G2602 a noun in the accusative case. The same word, in the genitive case is mistranslated as foundation the other 10 times our word appears in scripture. More on that in my next post.

 

Three times the phrase "before the foundation of the world" appears in the NT, and seven times the phrase "from the foundation of the world" appears in the NT. These are the ten cases where our word "kataboles" G2602 appears in the genitive case.

How did this word which literally means "throw or cast down" come to be rendered "foundation?" Did the Vulgate mistranslate it? Yes. Did Wycliffe render from the Vulgate into English the phrase in at least two verses "from the making of the world" or "from the beginning of the world?" Yes. Then in 1537 the Matthews Bible went with "since the world began." The Geneva Bible and Bishops Bible introduced "the foundation of the world." The KJV followed suit and we were off and running on the wrong track, if my source is valid. Can anyone confirm?

 

See last paragraph of post #1.

 

Does the description of creation in Genesis 1 or elsewhere in scripture ever refer to the planet being "thrown or cast down?" There are plenty of OT verses which indicate God casting down wicked people

 

As indicated the literal translation would be "the cast down of the 'kosmos.'" And "kosmos" might refer to the planet or to humanity, i.e. the fall of humanity due to Adam's sin. If we think about what occurred, I think scripture points to the fall of humanity.

Matthew 13:35
This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
“I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES;
I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION G2602 OF THE WORLD.”

There would have been no need of parables before the Fall.

Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation G2602 of the world.

There would be no need to "inherit" the kingdom before the Fall.

Luke 11:50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation G2602 of the world, may be charged against this generation,

There would be nothing to charge before the Fall.

John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation G2602 of the world.

Here Jesus asks the Father to allow those given to Him to see His glory which was given to the Second Person of the Trinity before the Fall of humanity.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation G2602 of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

Here God chose His Redeemer, and corporately chose those His Redeemer would redeem even before the Fall.

Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished from the foundation G2602 of the world.

Obviously there was no need before the Fall for the creation of a "Rest" (Abraham's bosom followed by entry into the Third Heaven) and just as obviously, since the Fall, His Rest needed to be ready to receive the Fallen who had obtained approval through faith and then salvation through faith.

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation G2602 of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Here is an excellent example of how well the Fall fits the idiom. No need before the fall, but the need since the Fall.

1 Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation G2602 of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Here again we have the truth that God had picked His Redeemer, His Lamb before the Fall.

Revelations 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundationG2602 of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

No need to write or not write names before the Fall, but plenty of need since the Fall.

Revelations 17:8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation G2602 of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

Same concept, no need to write or not write names before the Fall, but plenty of need since the Fall.

Thus the phrase could be translated in these 10 genitive cases, as before or since "the Fall of humanity [fn]"
The footnote would read, Greek "the down cast of humanity."

 

I have no problem with translating kosmos in the genitive as "of humanity" but to translate katabolEs G2602 as "down casting" seems to me to turn the noun into a verb, thus "the down cast" seems more literal to me. So my literal translation choice is "the down cast of humanity."

If it is possible to consider the genitive as a subjective genitive, then "humanity's down cast" might be the best rendering in English?

 

The naysayers offer nothing. The Greek word means down cast or cast down. It does not mean "foundation" another Greek word means foundation. And Kataboles does not mean beginning, yet another Greek word means beginning.

Consider Hebrews 6:1 where our word is translated as "laying (Greek lit. down casting) again a foundation" (Greek themelios G2310)...

What we have here is a failure to translate accurately.

Here is the question! If it is possible to consider the genitive as a subjective genitive, then "humanity's down cast" might be the best rendering in English?

 

Years ago I planted a grass lawn in my yard. First I prepared the soil with a engine powered "cultivator" which chewed up and turnover the top 2 or 3 inches. Then I "cast down seed" tossing it out of the bag, and dispersing it over the soil. This was the beginning of my lawn. So casting down seed does relate to the beginning of a new circumstance. So it is possible, I believe that "humanity's down cast" might refer to God putting Adam and Eve into the Garden of Eden, but I think the "Fall" better fits its usage.

 

Which translation is this?

And according to a common hermeneutic, we ask what is "therefore" therefore? It means as a result of enabling Sarah, (and Abraham) those fathered or born were according to the constellations of the heavens.

 

It did not ever mean "conception." See Syllambano (G4815) for the Greek word used as "conceive." (See Luke 1:24) It does mean castdown, and is used in the phrase castdown seed to indicate Sarah became fertile. But castdown by itself never meant conceive. That idea seems to be a monumental translation blunder.

I do not think any post has actually addressed why this word is translated as conceive or foundation when we have other Greek words that have those meanings.

 

Another phrase is also used to indicate someone is "with child" and literally might be translated as "in womb or belly with" See Matthew 1:23

 

The Greek word "katabole" (G2601) is a noun with the meaning of cast or throw down. In Hebrews 11:11 the phrase "throw down seed" is rendered "conceive" by the NASB. The NIV goes with "enabled to bear children." A literal translation for the word (throw or cast down) leaves the reader with ambiguity in the 10 other places where our word is used. Humanity's cast down or throw down does not bring to mind Humanity's Fall. However, a synonym for "cast down" is "subjugation" which does bring to mind humanity being enslaved to sin without any ability to free themselves, thus "subjected to futility," Romans 8:20.

A related Greek word katabállō (G2598) is a verb with the same meaning, to throw, hurl or lay down someone or something. See 2 Corinthians 4:9 and Hebrews 6:1.

Another Greek word, similar but with a different range of meanings, is "katalyo" (G2647) but primarily it means to tear down or dismantle resulting in destruction or abolishment. See Matthew 24:2.

In summary, in the 10 places where katabole is mistranslated as "foundation" it could be translated as "subjugation" thus the phrase would be "before (or since) humanity's subjugation.

 

The literal translation would be "the cast down of the 'kosmos.'" And "kosmos" might refer to the planet or to humanity, i.e. the fall of humanity due to Adam's sin. If we think about what occurred, I think scripture points to the fall of humanity.

Matthew 13:35
This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
“I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES;
I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE HUMANITY'S SUBJUGATION.”

There would have been no need of parables before the Fall.

Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you since humanity's subjugation."

There would be no need to "inherit" the kingdom before the Fall.

Luke 11:50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since humanity's subjugation, may be charged against this generation,

There would be nothing to charge before the Fall.

John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before humanity's subjugation."

Here Jesus asks the Father to allow those given to Him to see His glory which was given to the Second Person of the Trinity before the Fall of humanity.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before humanity's subjugation, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.

Here God chose His Redeemer, and corporately chose those His Redeemer would redeem even before the Fall.

Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished since humanity's subjugation.

Obviously there was no need before the Fall for the creation of a "Rest" (Abraham's bosom followed by entry into the Third Heaven) and just as obviously, since the Fall, His Rest needed to be ready to receive the Fallen who had obtained approval through faith and then salvation through faith.

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since humanity's subjugation, but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Here is an excellent example of how well the Fall fits the idiom. No need before the fall, but the need since the Fall.

1 Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before humanity's subjugation, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Here again we have the truth that God had picked His Redeemer, His Lamb before the Fall.

Revelations 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since humanity's subjugation in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

No need to write or not write names before the Fall, but plenty of need since the Fall.

Revelations 17:8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life since humanity's subjugation, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

Same concept, no need to write or not write names before the Fall, but plenty of need since the Fall.

Thus the phrase could be translated in these 10 genitive cases, as before or since "humanity's subjugation"