Claudia, are you trying to be the "master of deception?" On a Baptist message board you are not going to find support for your false doctrine of soul sleep and the annihilation of the wicked. The BIBLE not Webster is very plain about what happens to a lost soul, Luke 16. If you want to find support for what you are "preaching" may I suggest a JW message board someplace. :flower:
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
HELL- Does it Burn Forever and Ever?
- Thread starter Claudia_T
- Start date
THE GREEKS -and Cosmic Dualism
This is from the Encyclopedia Britannica. The idea of Cosmic Dualism that originated from the Greeks is where the Catholic Church got the idea of the naturally immortal soul. In the early Church the believers were plagued by the Gnostic teachings and fought vigorously against its teachings.
Read:
Analogous dualistic concepts may be found in the early Greek Theogony of Hesiod (fl. c. 700 [SIZE=-1]BC[/SIZE]) in his myths of the gods Uranus, Cronus, and Zeus, and the conflict between primordial and later gods. It was in the later, classical Greek world, however, that dualism was most evident. Many of the pre-Socratic philosophers (6th and 5th centuries [SIZE=-1]BC[/SIZE]) were dualistic in various ways. In the teachings of Parmenides, for example, noted for reducing the world to a static One—a classical instance of monism—there is still a radical opposition between the realms of Being and Opinion—between ultimate reality and the world of human sense experience. On the other hand, in the doctrines of Heracleitus, noted for reducing the world to fiery Change, the conflict of opposites (hot–cold, day–night, beginning–end, the-way-up–the-way-down), called by Heracleitus polemos (“war”), was exalted to become a metaphysical principle. Though these opposites are piecemeal dyads (“pairs”), their effect, taken together, is, as a whole, dualistic. The dualism of Empedocles, simultaneously a religious teacher and a natural philosopher, is especially striking, for he viewed the primordial sphere of the universe as undergoing cycles alternately under the dominance of the antithetical principles of Love and Discord, which periodically break and then reconstruct it. In this context there exist daimones (“souls”), divine beings that have fallen from a superior world into this world and exist clothed in the “foreign robe of the flesh.” These souls are therefore subject to transmigration through a series of vegetable, animal, and human bodies, owing to a primitive accident (for which credit was given “to the furious Discord”).
The same antithetical principles are to be found in Orphism, a Greek mystical school, which constituted an independent development within Greek religion and philosophy; beginning in the 6th century [SIZE=-1]BC[/SIZE], it was part of a “mysteriosophic” trend that sought to attain the wisdom of secret mystic and cultic doctrines. Orphism is characterized by its soma-sema, or body-tomb concept, which saw the body as a prison or tomb in which the soul—a divine element, akin to the gods—is incarcerated. In addition to this psychophysical dualism of soul and body, the Orphic idea that “everything comes from the One and returns to the One” demonstrates a typical dialectical dualism, in which an implicit monism is involved. Developing on an analogous level, Pythagorean numerical and mystical speculation, arising from the 6th-century-[SIZE=-1]BC[/SIZE] Greek philosopher and religious teacher Pythagoras, also stressed the dualistic opposition of Monad–Dyad (One–Two) and of other dialectical pairs of opposites.
This is from the Encyclopedia Britannica. The idea of Cosmic Dualism that originated from the Greeks is where the Catholic Church got the idea of the naturally immortal soul. In the early Church the believers were plagued by the Gnostic teachings and fought vigorously against its teachings.
Read:
Analogous dualistic concepts may be found in the early Greek Theogony of Hesiod (fl. c. 700 [SIZE=-1]BC[/SIZE]) in his myths of the gods Uranus, Cronus, and Zeus, and the conflict between primordial and later gods. It was in the later, classical Greek world, however, that dualism was most evident. Many of the pre-Socratic philosophers (6th and 5th centuries [SIZE=-1]BC[/SIZE]) were dualistic in various ways. In the teachings of Parmenides, for example, noted for reducing the world to a static One—a classical instance of monism—there is still a radical opposition between the realms of Being and Opinion—between ultimate reality and the world of human sense experience. On the other hand, in the doctrines of Heracleitus, noted for reducing the world to fiery Change, the conflict of opposites (hot–cold, day–night, beginning–end, the-way-up–the-way-down), called by Heracleitus polemos (“war”), was exalted to become a metaphysical principle. Though these opposites are piecemeal dyads (“pairs”), their effect, taken together, is, as a whole, dualistic. The dualism of Empedocles, simultaneously a religious teacher and a natural philosopher, is especially striking, for he viewed the primordial sphere of the universe as undergoing cycles alternately under the dominance of the antithetical principles of Love and Discord, which periodically break and then reconstruct it. In this context there exist daimones (“souls”), divine beings that have fallen from a superior world into this world and exist clothed in the “foreign robe of the flesh.” These souls are therefore subject to transmigration through a series of vegetable, animal, and human bodies, owing to a primitive accident (for which credit was given “to the furious Discord”).
The same antithetical principles are to be found in Orphism, a Greek mystical school, which constituted an independent development within Greek religion and philosophy; beginning in the 6th century [SIZE=-1]BC[/SIZE], it was part of a “mysteriosophic” trend that sought to attain the wisdom of secret mystic and cultic doctrines. Orphism is characterized by its soma-sema, or body-tomb concept, which saw the body as a prison or tomb in which the soul—a divine element, akin to the gods—is incarcerated. In addition to this psychophysical dualism of soul and body, the Orphic idea that “everything comes from the One and returns to the One” demonstrates a typical dialectical dualism, in which an implicit monism is involved. Developing on an analogous level, Pythagorean numerical and mystical speculation, arising from the 6th-century-[SIZE=-1]BC[/SIZE] Greek philosopher and religious teacher Pythagoras, also stressed the dualistic opposition of Monad–Dyad (One–Two) and of other dialectical pairs of opposites.
Just as a side note, the punishment for the wicked is called "the Second DEATH" as I have said...
Rv:2:11: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rv:20:6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rv:20:14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rv:21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
and the people of God knew this... it was referred to as "THE DEATH"
Mt:15:4: For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him DIE the death.
they knew the wicked wouldnt live forever and ever and ever buring in Hell, in "the death"... they instead would DIE "the death"
:null: :null:
Rv:2:11: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rv:20:6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rv:20:14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rv:21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
and the people of God knew this... it was referred to as "THE DEATH"
Mt:15:4: For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him DIE the death.
they knew the wicked wouldnt live forever and ever and ever buring in Hell, in "the death"... they instead would DIE "the death"
:null: :null:
Last edited by a moderator:
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Claudia,
I disagree with you about hell. You saying that fire shall be gone in a while. The Bible doesn't teaching it.
'Perish' means death and punishment from God.
Bible clearly teaching us that, fire shall never quenched, it continuing forever and ever without stop.
Look at Luke chapter 16 of the rich man in hell. This pasage is REAL story. It is not annihilation. It tells us, the rich man is being torment in the flame so greatly. It shows that he was in a great painful. Also, it proved us that, flame is real and tormenting rich man. Flame never quech upon rich man. I believe that rich man is still torment in the flame right.
Also, hell shall be cast into the lake of fire, it is the final futurer everlasting punishment, fire shall never, never cease forever and ever. That's scary. You have to accept the fact and truth what the Bible saying, believe it.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I disagree with you about hell. You saying that fire shall be gone in a while. The Bible doesn't teaching it.
'Perish' means death and punishment from God.
Bible clearly teaching us that, fire shall never quenched, it continuing forever and ever without stop.
Look at Luke chapter 16 of the rich man in hell. This pasage is REAL story. It is not annihilation. It tells us, the rich man is being torment in the flame so greatly. It shows that he was in a great painful. Also, it proved us that, flame is real and tormenting rich man. Flame never quech upon rich man. I believe that rich man is still torment in the flame right.
Also, hell shall be cast into the lake of fire, it is the final futurer everlasting punishment, fire shall never, never cease forever and ever. That's scary. You have to accept the fact and truth what the Bible saying, believe it.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib said:
Mt:3:12: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
But the chaff will be BURNED UP with the unquenchable fire. Unquenchable means no human can put out the fire.
Ps:106:18: And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked.
To be truly honest, I cannot comprehend how people cant see and realize simple statements like this in the Bible:
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]How many distinct groups, or classes, of people will have a resurrection?
"There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." Acts 24:15.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]How does Christ describe these two resurrections?
"All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]When will the resurrection of the just occur?
"For The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arch-angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:16. (See also 1 Corinthians 15:23.)[/FONT]
-Bible Readings for the Home
It seems so clear that people dont go straight to heaven when they die... its like people just dont get what the Resurrection is all about...
they just close their eyes and believe we are naturally immortal.
Then they carry this same thought on over to the ideas about Hell. They just dont see that the wicked dont get the gift of eternal life and that "forever" and "everlasting" dont ALWAYS mean what they think it to mean in the Scriptures.
I think I read it is like 76 times in the Bible that forever is used to mean something of limited duration, until the end of a time period. But its like you can show them and tell them and they will just act like you never said it and say "But it SAYS Hell burns forever!"
Ive never used this icon before but it makes me want to go :BangHead:
"There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." Acts 24:15.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]How does Christ describe these two resurrections?
"All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]When will the resurrection of the just occur?
"For The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arch-angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:16. (See also 1 Corinthians 15:23.)[/FONT]
-Bible Readings for the Home
It seems so clear that people dont go straight to heaven when they die... its like people just dont get what the Resurrection is all about...
they just close their eyes and believe we are naturally immortal.
Then they carry this same thought on over to the ideas about Hell. They just dont see that the wicked dont get the gift of eternal life and that "forever" and "everlasting" dont ALWAYS mean what they think it to mean in the Scriptures.
I think I read it is like 76 times in the Bible that forever is used to mean something of limited duration, until the end of a time period. But its like you can show them and tell them and they will just act like you never said it and say "But it SAYS Hell burns forever!"
Ive never used this icon before but it makes me want to go :BangHead:
To be truly honest, I cannot comprehend how people cant see and realize simple statements like this in the Bible: by Claudia
What a testimony! You don't believe people go straight to Heaven when they die and you don't believe in a eternal lake of fire. What a "religion" you have! Sorry lady it doesn't matter if you believe it or not......doesn't change God's Word!
What a testimony! You don't believe people go straight to Heaven when they die and you don't believe in a eternal lake of fire. What a "religion" you have! Sorry lady it doesn't matter if you believe it or not......doesn't change God's Word!
Maybe this will help some here to understand this idea...
Quotes are taken from J.W. Hanson's, "Bible Threatenings Explained."
Hanson wrote, "Gehenna was a well-known valley, near Jerusalem, in which the Jews in their idolatrous days had sacrificed their children to the idol Moloch, in consequence of which it was condemned to receive the offal and refuse and sewage of the city, and into which the bodies of malefactors were cast and where to destroy the odor and pestilential influences, continual fires were kept burning. Here fire, smoke, worms bred by the corruption, and other repulsive features, rendered the place a horrible one, in the eyes of the Jews. It was locality with which they were as well acquainted as they were with any place in or around the city. But in process of time Gehenna came to be an emblem of the consequences of sin, and to be employed figuratively by the Jews, to denote those consequences. But always in this world. The Jews never used it to mean torment after death, until long after Christ. That the word had not the meaning of post-mortem torment when our Savior used it."
Hanson wrote, "Every Bible reference is to this world. Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jude ever employed it. Would they not have warned sinners concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death?" Neither Christ nor His apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but only to Jews, which proves it a locality only known to Jews, whereas, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners, it would have preached to Gentiles as well as to Jews.
"The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching, and the history of the first planting of the church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles of Jesus, there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort, these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations, never, under any circumstances, threaten them with the torments of Gehenna, or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this, can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment; and that this is a part of divine revelation, a part of the gospel message to the world?"
"Now if endless punishment awaits millions of the human race, and if it is denoted by this word, is it possible that only David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, and Malachi use the word to define punishment, in all less than a dozen times, while Job, Moses, Joshua, Ruth, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Solomon, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Hahum, Habbakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai and Zachariah never employed it thus? Such silence is criminal, on the popular hypothesis. These holy men should and would have made every sentence bristle with the word, and thus have borne the awful message to the soul with an emphasis that could neither be resisted or disputed. The fact that the word is so seldom, and by so few applied to punishment, and never in the Old Testament to punishment beyond death, demonstrates that it cannot mean endless."
Unquenchable:
Lev. 6:12-13; 2 King 22:17; 2 Chron. 34:25; Isa. 34:10; 42:3; 43:3; 66:24; Jer 4:4; 7:20; 17:27; 21:12; Exek. 20:47; Matt. 12:20; Mark 9:43-48
Hanson wrote, "Many suppose that the words "unquenchable fire" mean a fire of endless duration, whereas, it is a fire that cannot be quenched until its purpose is accomplished. The meaning is, not that the fire was endless, but that it was not quenched,--it continued to burn--until all the material was destroyed. So the judgments of God on the Jews were effectually done -- the nation was completely devastated and destroyed. They were like chaff of the summer threshing floor in the consuming fire of God's judgment."
"We see the word everlasting applied to God's covenant with the Jews; to the priesthood of Aaron; to the statutes of Moses; to the time the Jews were to possess the land of Canaan; to the mountains and hills; and to the doors of the Jewish temple. We see the word forever applied to the duration of a man's earthly existence; to the time a child was to abide in the temple; to the continuance of Gehazi's leprosy; to the duration of the life of David; to the duration of a king's life; to the duration of the earth; to the time the Jews were to possess the land of Canaan; to the time they were to dwell in Jerusalem; to the time a servant was to abide with his master; to the time Jerusalem was to remain a city; to the duration of the Jewish temple; to the laws and ordinances of Moses; to the time David was to be king over Israel; to the throne of Solomon; to the stones that were set up at Jordan; to the time the righteous were to inhabit the earth; and to the time Jonah was in the fish's belly. We find the phrase forever and ever applied to the hosts of heaven, or the sun, moon, and stars; to a writing contained in a book; to the smoke that went up from the burning land of Idumea; and to the time the Jews were to dwell in Judea. We find the word never applied to the time the fire was to burn on the Jewish altar; to the time the sword was to remain in the house of David; to God's covenant with the Jews; to the time the Jews should not experience shame; to the time the house of David was to reign over Israel; to the time the Jews were not to open their mouths because of their shame; to the time those who fell by death should remain in their fallen state; and to the time judgment was not executed.
But the law covenant is abolished; the priesthood of Aaron and his sons has ceased; the ordinances, and laws, and statutes of Moses are abrogated; the Jews have long since been dispossessed of the land of Canaan, have been driven from Judea, and God has brought upon them a reproach and a shame; the man to the duration of whose life the word forever was applied is dead; David is dead, and has ceased to reign over Israel; the throne of Solomon no longer exists; the Jewish temple is demolished, and Jerusalem has been overthrown, so that there is not left "one stone upon another;" the servants of the Jews have been freed from their masters; Gehazi is dead, and no one believes he carried his leprosy with him into the future world; the stones that were set up at Jordan have been removed, and the smoke that went up from the burning land of Idumea has ceased to ascend; the righteous do not inherit the earth endlessly, and no one believes that the mountains and hills, as such, are indestructible; the fire that burnt on the Jewish altar has long since ceased to burn; judgment has been executed; and no Christian believes that those who fall by death will never be awakened from their slumbers. Now, as these words are used in this limited sense in the Scriptures, why should it be supposed that they express endless duration when applied to punishment?" (Thomas B. Thayer - The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment). See Everlasting. - Gen. 17:7, 8, 13; 48:4; 49:26; Exod. 40:15; LeV 16:34; Numb. 25:13; Ps. 24:7; Hab. 3:6. Forever. - Deut. 15:17; 1 Sam. 1:22; 27:12; LeV 25:46; 2 Kings 5:27; Job 41:4; 1 Kings 1:31; Neh. 2:3; Dan. 2:4; Exod. 14:13; Eccl 1:4; Ps. 104:5; 78:69; Ezek. 37:25; Gen. 13:15; Exod. 32:13; Josh. 14:9; 1 Chron. 23:25; Jer. 17:25; Ps. 48:8; Jer. 31:40; 1 Kings 8:13; Numb. 10:8;18:23; 1 Chron. 28:4; 1 Kings 9:5; Josh. 4:7; Jonah 2:6; Ps. 37:29. Forever and ever. - Ps. 148:5, 6; Isa. 30:8; 34:10; Jer. 7:7; 25:5. Never. - LeV 6:13; 2 Sam. 12:10; Judges 2:1; Joel 2:26, 27; Jer. 33:17; Ezek. 16:63; Amos 8:14; Hab. 1:4.
Hanson wrote, "All these and numerous other eternal, everlasting things -- things that were to last forever, and to which the various aionion words are applied--have now ended, and if these hundreds of instances must denote limited duration why should the few times in which punishments are spoken of have any other meaning? Even if endless duration were the intrinsic meaning of the word, all intelligent readers of the Bible would perceive that the word must be employed to denote limited duration in the passages above cited. And surely in the very few times in which it is connected with punishment it must have a similar meaning."
Quotes are taken from J.W. Hanson's, "Bible Threatenings Explained."
Hanson wrote, "Gehenna was a well-known valley, near Jerusalem, in which the Jews in their idolatrous days had sacrificed their children to the idol Moloch, in consequence of which it was condemned to receive the offal and refuse and sewage of the city, and into which the bodies of malefactors were cast and where to destroy the odor and pestilential influences, continual fires were kept burning. Here fire, smoke, worms bred by the corruption, and other repulsive features, rendered the place a horrible one, in the eyes of the Jews. It was locality with which they were as well acquainted as they were with any place in or around the city. But in process of time Gehenna came to be an emblem of the consequences of sin, and to be employed figuratively by the Jews, to denote those consequences. But always in this world. The Jews never used it to mean torment after death, until long after Christ. That the word had not the meaning of post-mortem torment when our Savior used it."
Hanson wrote, "Every Bible reference is to this world. Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jude ever employed it. Would they not have warned sinners concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death?" Neither Christ nor His apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but only to Jews, which proves it a locality only known to Jews, whereas, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners, it would have preached to Gentiles as well as to Jews.
"The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching, and the history of the first planting of the church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles of Jesus, there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort, these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations, never, under any circumstances, threaten them with the torments of Gehenna, or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this, can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment; and that this is a part of divine revelation, a part of the gospel message to the world?"
"Now if endless punishment awaits millions of the human race, and if it is denoted by this word, is it possible that only David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, and Malachi use the word to define punishment, in all less than a dozen times, while Job, Moses, Joshua, Ruth, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Solomon, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Hahum, Habbakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai and Zachariah never employed it thus? Such silence is criminal, on the popular hypothesis. These holy men should and would have made every sentence bristle with the word, and thus have borne the awful message to the soul with an emphasis that could neither be resisted or disputed. The fact that the word is so seldom, and by so few applied to punishment, and never in the Old Testament to punishment beyond death, demonstrates that it cannot mean endless."
Unquenchable:
Lev. 6:12-13; 2 King 22:17; 2 Chron. 34:25; Isa. 34:10; 42:3; 43:3; 66:24; Jer 4:4; 7:20; 17:27; 21:12; Exek. 20:47; Matt. 12:20; Mark 9:43-48
Hanson wrote, "Many suppose that the words "unquenchable fire" mean a fire of endless duration, whereas, it is a fire that cannot be quenched until its purpose is accomplished. The meaning is, not that the fire was endless, but that it was not quenched,--it continued to burn--until all the material was destroyed. So the judgments of God on the Jews were effectually done -- the nation was completely devastated and destroyed. They were like chaff of the summer threshing floor in the consuming fire of God's judgment."
"We see the word everlasting applied to God's covenant with the Jews; to the priesthood of Aaron; to the statutes of Moses; to the time the Jews were to possess the land of Canaan; to the mountains and hills; and to the doors of the Jewish temple. We see the word forever applied to the duration of a man's earthly existence; to the time a child was to abide in the temple; to the continuance of Gehazi's leprosy; to the duration of the life of David; to the duration of a king's life; to the duration of the earth; to the time the Jews were to possess the land of Canaan; to the time they were to dwell in Jerusalem; to the time a servant was to abide with his master; to the time Jerusalem was to remain a city; to the duration of the Jewish temple; to the laws and ordinances of Moses; to the time David was to be king over Israel; to the throne of Solomon; to the stones that were set up at Jordan; to the time the righteous were to inhabit the earth; and to the time Jonah was in the fish's belly. We find the phrase forever and ever applied to the hosts of heaven, or the sun, moon, and stars; to a writing contained in a book; to the smoke that went up from the burning land of Idumea; and to the time the Jews were to dwell in Judea. We find the word never applied to the time the fire was to burn on the Jewish altar; to the time the sword was to remain in the house of David; to God's covenant with the Jews; to the time the Jews should not experience shame; to the time the house of David was to reign over Israel; to the time the Jews were not to open their mouths because of their shame; to the time those who fell by death should remain in their fallen state; and to the time judgment was not executed.
But the law covenant is abolished; the priesthood of Aaron and his sons has ceased; the ordinances, and laws, and statutes of Moses are abrogated; the Jews have long since been dispossessed of the land of Canaan, have been driven from Judea, and God has brought upon them a reproach and a shame; the man to the duration of whose life the word forever was applied is dead; David is dead, and has ceased to reign over Israel; the throne of Solomon no longer exists; the Jewish temple is demolished, and Jerusalem has been overthrown, so that there is not left "one stone upon another;" the servants of the Jews have been freed from their masters; Gehazi is dead, and no one believes he carried his leprosy with him into the future world; the stones that were set up at Jordan have been removed, and the smoke that went up from the burning land of Idumea has ceased to ascend; the righteous do not inherit the earth endlessly, and no one believes that the mountains and hills, as such, are indestructible; the fire that burnt on the Jewish altar has long since ceased to burn; judgment has been executed; and no Christian believes that those who fall by death will never be awakened from their slumbers. Now, as these words are used in this limited sense in the Scriptures, why should it be supposed that they express endless duration when applied to punishment?" (Thomas B. Thayer - The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment). See Everlasting. - Gen. 17:7, 8, 13; 48:4; 49:26; Exod. 40:15; LeV 16:34; Numb. 25:13; Ps. 24:7; Hab. 3:6. Forever. - Deut. 15:17; 1 Sam. 1:22; 27:12; LeV 25:46; 2 Kings 5:27; Job 41:4; 1 Kings 1:31; Neh. 2:3; Dan. 2:4; Exod. 14:13; Eccl 1:4; Ps. 104:5; 78:69; Ezek. 37:25; Gen. 13:15; Exod. 32:13; Josh. 14:9; 1 Chron. 23:25; Jer. 17:25; Ps. 48:8; Jer. 31:40; 1 Kings 8:13; Numb. 10:8;18:23; 1 Chron. 28:4; 1 Kings 9:5; Josh. 4:7; Jonah 2:6; Ps. 37:29. Forever and ever. - Ps. 148:5, 6; Isa. 30:8; 34:10; Jer. 7:7; 25:5. Never. - LeV 6:13; 2 Sam. 12:10; Judges 2:1; Joel 2:26, 27; Jer. 33:17; Ezek. 16:63; Amos 8:14; Hab. 1:4.
Hanson wrote, "All these and numerous other eternal, everlasting things -- things that were to last forever, and to which the various aionion words are applied--have now ended, and if these hundreds of instances must denote limited duration why should the few times in which punishments are spoken of have any other meaning? Even if endless duration were the intrinsic meaning of the word, all intelligent readers of the Bible would perceive that the word must be employed to denote limited duration in the passages above cited. And surely in the very few times in which it is connected with punishment it must have a similar meaning."
Claudia_T,
Have you tried reading the Bible for yourself instead of letting others tell you what it means? When read without preconceived ideas about what it says, it is clear that it speaks of the punishment of unbelievers being eternal torment in the lake of fire. Why would Jesus warn over and over not to go where "the fire is not quenched"? So what if a fire burns forever if people there do not consciously experience torment forever. If ceasing to exist is what awaits unbelievers, then they do not have near as much to worry about. Non-existence would be preferable to eternal torment. Even if one had to be tormented for a billion years before he was annihilated, just knowing that one day the torment will definitely end would probably be enough for a person to opt to be able to live as sinful as he wants and never follow Christ. Why fear non-existence? If one were to cease to exist, he would never know he experienced torment in the first place. He would not "know" anything...not even that he once existed.
To suggest that what awaits non-Christians is anything other that eternal torment is to belittle the Gospel. One point is that we are told in the Bible that we could never pay for our sins. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. But wait a minute, if this death is physical death as you may be suggesting, then that would mean that some were able to pay for their sins. Take Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from the dead. He died. Does this mean that when Jesus raised him back to life that he was then sinless? It should if death as you put it is the consequence for sin. He died, so he should have paid for his sins. But the Bible says that no one can pay for his sins. But wait...the Bible also indicates, when one is willing to see it, that the consequences of sin were not just physical death, but also spiritual death...separation from God. After Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they were no longer sinless. They died spiritually at that moment and their bodies began to die physically. The reference to Adam and Eve being driven from the Garden of Eden so they would not partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life and live forever is then best understood to be referring to "physical life". This possibly means that if God had allowed them to eat from the Tree of Life, then they would then have physically lived forever in a sinful fallen body spiritually separated from God. Fortunately God did not let that happen. (whether or not this exactly means this, it definitely is not teaching the doctrine of annihilation.)
Revelation makes reference to the smoke of unbelievers ascending up forever. For the smoke to come from the unbelievers, then the unbelievers have to be present to burn. If they "burned up" and ceased to exist, then they would no longer produce smoke, and hence, their smoke would not ascend up forever as the Bible says it will.
You are following a very dangerous teaching.
Have you tried reading the Bible for yourself instead of letting others tell you what it means? When read without preconceived ideas about what it says, it is clear that it speaks of the punishment of unbelievers being eternal torment in the lake of fire. Why would Jesus warn over and over not to go where "the fire is not quenched"? So what if a fire burns forever if people there do not consciously experience torment forever. If ceasing to exist is what awaits unbelievers, then they do not have near as much to worry about. Non-existence would be preferable to eternal torment. Even if one had to be tormented for a billion years before he was annihilated, just knowing that one day the torment will definitely end would probably be enough for a person to opt to be able to live as sinful as he wants and never follow Christ. Why fear non-existence? If one were to cease to exist, he would never know he experienced torment in the first place. He would not "know" anything...not even that he once existed.
To suggest that what awaits non-Christians is anything other that eternal torment is to belittle the Gospel. One point is that we are told in the Bible that we could never pay for our sins. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. But wait a minute, if this death is physical death as you may be suggesting, then that would mean that some were able to pay for their sins. Take Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from the dead. He died. Does this mean that when Jesus raised him back to life that he was then sinless? It should if death as you put it is the consequence for sin. He died, so he should have paid for his sins. But the Bible says that no one can pay for his sins. But wait...the Bible also indicates, when one is willing to see it, that the consequences of sin were not just physical death, but also spiritual death...separation from God. After Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they were no longer sinless. They died spiritually at that moment and their bodies began to die physically. The reference to Adam and Eve being driven from the Garden of Eden so they would not partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life and live forever is then best understood to be referring to "physical life". This possibly means that if God had allowed them to eat from the Tree of Life, then they would then have physically lived forever in a sinful fallen body spiritually separated from God. Fortunately God did not let that happen. (whether or not this exactly means this, it definitely is not teaching the doctrine of annihilation.)
Revelation makes reference to the smoke of unbelievers ascending up forever. For the smoke to come from the unbelievers, then the unbelievers have to be present to burn. If they "burned up" and ceased to exist, then they would no longer produce smoke, and hence, their smoke would not ascend up forever as the Bible says it will.
You are following a very dangerous teaching.
tragic_pizza
New Member
Seriously, folks. What difference does it make who is right about Hell?
Are we saved by a proper theology of Hell, or by faith in Jesus Christ?
Are we saved by a proper theology of Hell, or by faith in Jesus Christ?
tragic_pizza said:
it matters a great great deal because thousands of people have been turned away from and disgusted with the depiction of a Christian God who would torture you forever and ever throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity for your sins. And then we turn around and try to tell them about God's Love.
If the Bible says thats not true then thousands of people are being lost because of that false doctrine. Not to mention it makes it a hundred times more difficult for people who are trying to tell the Gospel message because they've got to try to overcome this huge obstacle.
Mt:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
AND besides that, the other doctrine that goes along with this idea of a naturally Immortal Soul also causes people to believe they can talk to and get advice from their dead relatives, and if they are dead in the grave well who do you think is really answering them or standing there at night at the foot of their bed talking to them?
Its demonic.
This theory of the Natural Immortality of the Soul is the very foundational belief of Spiritualism. Thats why Catholics think they can pray to the Virgin Mary. and talk to dead Saints.
and if all this is so then the fact that nearly the entire Protestant World has accepted these doctrines is HUGE
Claudia
Last edited by a moderator:
tragic_pizza
New Member
So one must have faith in Christ and "correct" doctrine to be saved?
Gup20
Active Member
God is infinite. God created you. The Bible says that all have sinned. I am guessing you have sinned in your life. Because God is infinate, wouldn't a just punishment for you sinning against an infinite God also have to be infinate.
It's like saying... For this crime you must pay 10% restitution. Well... 10% of infinity is ... well... infinity.
So you see, you have ALREADY (by your sin) qualified yourself for an infinate punishment -- as has everyone who has ever sinned.
This is THE VERY BASIS for Christ's attonement. If he were not infinite, then the ammount of sin he could 'die for' would be limited. However, because the sin was infinite, justice demands an infinite sacrifice. This is why ONLY christ could die for our sins... why animal sacrifices could not suffice.
I would have to reject your implication that an eternal damnation in hell is unjust. To believe this takes God out of the realm of infinate and places Him into a finite realm --- where his worth and value are able to be determined as a finite value. A finite punishment would actually be merciful, rather than just.
It's like saying... For this crime you must pay 10% restitution. Well... 10% of infinity is ... well... infinity.
So you see, you have ALREADY (by your sin) qualified yourself for an infinate punishment -- as has everyone who has ever sinned.
This is THE VERY BASIS for Christ's attonement. If he were not infinite, then the ammount of sin he could 'die for' would be limited. However, because the sin was infinite, justice demands an infinite sacrifice. This is why ONLY christ could die for our sins... why animal sacrifices could not suffice.
I would have to reject your implication that an eternal damnation in hell is unjust. To believe this takes God out of the realm of infinate and places Him into a finite realm --- where his worth and value are able to be determined as a finite value. A finite punishment would actually be merciful, rather than just.
Claudia, you did NOT come up with your opinion by reading the Bible, because the Bible does not say what you are trying to teach others. Your opinions came directly from the SDA false doctrine which came from the false "prophet Ellen White". It is typical SDA lies. I hope that you will separate yourself from them and pray for God to reveal the TRUTH of the scriptures to you. I do not intend for this to sound mean or unkind because I think you're a nice person. But, you have been deceived by false teachers and all your postings prove it. I pray that God will reveal this to you.Claudia_T said:
