HELL- Does it Burn Forever and Ever?

[DHK]

You have to admit this would be much easier for you if you did not hold to your prior bias when coming to these texts.

Bob

You mean like the anti Christian teaching of the JW's and the SDA's?

It is not necessary, Shiloh, to start a name-calling thread as you have done elsewhere. Refute the position with Scripture, not ad hominems. Here is some Scripture for you to remeber:

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob,

It would seem that you are taking part of the passage in Jude way out of context. Verse 6 is speaking about the punishment of the disobedient angels (those that fell with Satan). Then Jude switches to the example of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah being punished for indulging in sexual immorality. Thus, God killed those people physically with fire and brimstone from heaven. This fire and brimstone likewise completely destroyed the cities of the area.

This is the part we agree on. I did not take it out of context for in fact I strongly affirm it.

BibleB

The context here, with respect to the sinful people (i.e. their souls), is talking strictly about the eternal punishment of their souls by eternal fire. The context of the passage clearly is not trying to make the claim that the actual physical location of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah is undergoing the same punishment by eternal fire.

The text does refer to the cities themselves --

And in the texts that deal with this - it is clear that the eternal fie of God "fell on them" in the form of fire and brimstone. God is eternal - fire that comes from God is eternal (Our God IS a consuming fire).

The text is very clear that this destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah by eternal fire in the form of fire and brimstone is a perfect example of what it means to undergo the "punishment of eternal fire".

These texts show that it is literal, physcial and destructive of BOTH the cities AND the people.

Jude
7 just as [b]Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities[/b] around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
[

They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God sent as ‘judgment” as the “punishment” of eternal fire..

Luke 17:29-30
29 but on the day that Lot went out from [b]Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.[/b]
30 "It will be [b]just the same[/b] on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.



2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned [b]the cities[/b] of Sodom and Gomorrah to [b]destruction by reducing them to ashes[/b], having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

And the most devastating part of this is the crystal clear statement in Jude --

exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You are not stating the obvious. How many buildings in this world do you know of today that are a thousand years old. Your interpretation is ridiculous.

The text itself DOES meantion the cities explicitly - I have no way of turning a blind eye to that fact.

And "yes" there are both BUILDINGS and CITIES that have stood for 1000's of years. But it is not Necessary for buildings to stand for 1000's of years in order to see a CITY remaining for thousands of years JUST as we see in the case of Rome.

Obviously.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The text itself DOES meantion the cities explicitly - I have no way of turning a blind eye to that fact.

And "yes" there are both BUILDINGS and CITIES that have stood for 1000's of years. But it is not Necessary for buildings to stand for 1000's of years in order to see a CITY remaining for thousands of years JUST as we see in the case of Rome.
Obviously
Bob

No it isn't obvious. Here is what would have had to happen. For you to state this as true. You would have to find an entire city as big as Sodom (and possibly all the cities around) with every building in tact just as it was 1000 years ago, with no deterioration having taken place. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics would have had to be suspended for a thousand years. All of these buildings would have to be livable with people, all descendents of the original Sodomites that lived there during the time of Lot still living there in the time of Christ a thousand years later. In effect you would have to find an entire city with everything in tact: buildings, streets, utensils, etc. all the same, and perfectly usable, with the same descendents of those that were living there a thousand years ago for what Jesus said to be true.
Possible? No! Absolutely impossible. Those things that you find today that are a thousand years old are simply artifacts, not livable houses with all their furnishings. Think Bob, don't make excuses. Jesus was speaking of people not land, buildings, and physical structures. Use your head.

 

[av1611jim]

Revelation 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Okey-dokey Bob buddy ol" pal. Let's see what SCRIPTURE says about your heretical theology.
1. The Devil is cast INTO the lake of fire. This takes place 1000 years AFTER the beast and false prophet have been tossed in it.
2. When the devil gets there, lo and behold the beast and false prophet are STILL there.
3. The beast and the false prophet have already been established as MEN when they were alive.
4. They do NOT burn up like so much of yesterday's newspaper but still REMAIN.
5. There is TORMENT day and night FOREVER for these two men.
6. The devil is consigned to the SAME fate as the B and FP.
7. ALL PEOPLE whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life are ALSO tossed in those flames to SUFFER that same fate as the D., B, and F.P.


Your heresy is false. And it is a lie straight out of the pit. It has been around since Eve rebelled against God and is of the same source as that which she believed. Yea, hath God said....?

Men do not fear nonexistence for that is nothing more than a pretty new face for Epicureanism. "Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die." Where is the fear of God in that concept? None whatsoever. You are deluded to think people will turn to God if all they fear to face is annihilation.

THE FEAR OF GOD IS THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM. THE BEGINNING OF KNOWLEDGE. THE BEGINNING OF UNDERSTANDING.

Get it? Of course you don't.

 

[Shiloh]

You mean like the anti Christian teaching of the JW's and the SDA's?

It is not necessary, Shiloh, to start a name-calling thread as you have done elsewhere. Refute the position with Scripture, not ad hominems. Here is some Scripture for you to remeber:

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

Ok, DHK, I stand corrected.......I should have said, "You mean like what I believe to be the anti-Christian teaching of the JW's and the SDA's."

 

[BobRyan]

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

As compared to the pre-advent judgment in Dan 7 -- where they are ALSO judged out of the things written in the books "For we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" and in the end "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22.

Okey-dokey Bob buddy ol" pal.

Oky-Dokey jim buddy ol' pal - we are on topic. Have at it.

Let's see what SCRIPTURE says about your heretical theology.
1. The Devil is cast INTO the lake of fire. This takes place 1000 years AFTER the beast and false prophet have been tossed in it.
2. When the devil gets there, lo and behold the beast and false prophet are STILL there.
3. The beast and the false prophet have already been established as MEN when they were alive.

No they are not. They are established as institutions when they were alive. Organizations. In one case an apostate reformed Church in another case the RCC itself that persecuted the saints for 1260 years in the dark ages as we saw it doing in Rev 12.

Try again.

4. They do NOT burn up like so much of yesterday's newspaper but still REMAIN.

This is a key point Jim ol' buddy ol' pal. You are very clear on what "Burn up" and "Consumed" and "turned to ashes" means here - and you state clearly that this does NOT happen to people burned by eternal fire.

yet this is EXACTLY what God says happens to them!! You have exposed the flaw in your own argument.

Jude
7 just as [b]Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities[/b] around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
[

They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God sent as ‘judgment” as the “punishment” of eternal fire..

Luke 17:29-30
29 but on the day that Lot went out from [b]Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.[/b]
30 "It will be [b]just the same[/b] on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.



2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned [b]the cities[/b] of Sodom and Gomorrah to [b]destruction by reducing them to ashes[/b], having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

hmmm "reducing them to ashes"

The VERY thing Jim says God does NOT do with eternal fire!!


Mal 4:1,3 The wicked will be set ablaze – turned to ashes, nothing left



Ps 59:13 The wicked are “destroyed” they will “be no more”
“Destroy them in wrath – Destroy them that they may be No More”

Ps 104:35 sinners will be consumed – they will “be no more”
Ps 1:6 – not only the wicked – but “wickedness perishes”
Ps 10:15 God seeks out wickedness “until He finds none”

Prov 24:19-20 The wicked have a bad future – and THEN they have “no future”

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Let's take a closer look at what Jim says can not happen in Eternal fire -- the wicked being CONSUMED, DESTROYED, turned to ashes!!

Jim said --
4. They do NOT burn up like so much of yesterday's newspaper but still REMAIN.

The wicked are “consumed”

Rev 20:9
Rev 20
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.[/b]
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and [b]fire came down from heaven and devoured them.[/b]



Heb 10:27

Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a [b

]terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.[/

b]
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment[/b] do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?



2Peter 3:7-12

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.[/b]
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, [b]not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of [b]the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!


Ezek 28:18

Ezek 28 <Speaking of Satan>
18
"By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
[b] It has consumed you,

And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"




Ps 104:35
Ps 104.
35Let sinners be consumed from the earth
And let the wicked be no more [/b]
Bless the LORD, O my soul
Praise the LORD!

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather [b]fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

 

[BobRyan]

Jim said
There is TORMENT day and night FOREVER

Indeed as Rev 14:10 says of ALL the wicked in the lake of fire "And they shall be tormented day and night .. and the SMOKE of their torment ascends up forever and ever" for they are "tormented in THE PRESENCE of the LAMB and of His Holy Ones"... you will be there to witness every second of it - for as Rev 20 points out this takes place surrounding the camp of the saints. The New Jerusalem.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[av1611jim]

Let's take a closer look at what Jim says can not happen in Eternal fire -- the wicked being CONSUMED, DESTROYED, turned to ashes!!



The wicked are “consumed”

Rev 20:9
Rev 20
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.[/b]
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and [b]fire came down from heaven and devoured them.[/b]



Heb 10:27

Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a [b

]terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.[/

b]
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment[/b] do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?



2Peter 3:7-12

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.[/b]
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, [b]not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of [b]the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!


Ezek 28:18

Ezek 28 <Speaking of Satan>
18
"By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
[b] It has consumed you,

And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"




Ps 104:35
Ps 104.
35Let sinners be consumed from the earth
And let the wicked be no more [/b]
Bless the LORD, O my soul
Praise the LORD!

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather [b]fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

For all I know this is the "Clear Word Translation" invented by SDA's to support their false doctrines. Much like the JW's did the NWT.

Bob, I gave you Scripture (KJV) and all you did was say....no it's not.

:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

You have my pity. As do all hell deniers. JW, SDA, LDS, etc. You tell folks all they have to fear is non-existence and give them permission in indulge in the wickedness of Epicureanism. Eat, Drink and be merry for tormorrow we die. Why SHOULD I believe your junk? I have nothing to fear.

 

[BobRyan]

Jim the fact that your response to the scriptures given here is "just to make stuff up" -- speaks volumes about your failed argument.

Why not try a more Bible-embracing approach??

God's Word may refute your false doctrine but over-all it is pretty good. I highly recommend it. Your response in the form of "making stuff up" is very poor substitute for paying attention to the Word of God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Let's take a closer look at what Jim says can not happen in Eternal fire -- the wicked being CONSUMED, DESTROYED, turned to ashes!!

The wicked are “consumed”

Rev 20:9
Rev 20
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.[/b]
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and [b]fire came down from heaven and devoured them.[/b]

Very deceitful of you Bob; Very deceitful! It is called taking Scripture out of context. Why not quote the entire context? Why leave out the last verse of the paragraph, verse 10? Because it defeats your entire argument?? What does it say?

Revelation 20:9-10 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
--The teaching of eternal torment is very clear, if you quote the entire context. But you leave out the convenient details.

The scene is a physical battle with actual people involved. Those decoured are the bodies of the people that are following Satan. Yes bodies can be destroyed or devoured. No one here questions that. But both their bodies and spirits will stand again before the Great White Throne Judgement. There is a second resurrection.

Heb 10:27

Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a

terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown indicate that the word "devour" means "to devour continually." Look at the context which you ignore. There is only one sacrifice for sins--Jesus Christ. The author of the Book of Hebrews was writing to "Hebrews," in which some were thinking of turning back to Judaism. They had not yet fully embraced Christianity. If they went back to Judaism there would be no sacrifice for sins in their animal sacrifices. There remains only one sacrifice for sins, and a judgement that would continually devour them forever. It speaks of eternal punishment. The actual meaning behind the word defeats your own doctrine.



2Peter 3:7-12

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for

the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.[/

b]
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, [b]not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of [b]the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

Verse 7 goes with a different paragraph which ends with verse 6--more Scripture taken out of context. It contrasts two worlds destroyed: the first world destroyed by water--The Flood; and the second world (this world) which will eventually be destroyed by fire. The reference to ungodly men reserved to judgement is a reference to the Great White Throne Judgement. Destruction does not mean annihilation. It means everlasting separation from God. The rest of the passage speaks of things that are physically destroyed and defeats your argument--the sun, moon, and universe will all be physically destroyed. It has no bearing on man who is a spirit being clothed in a body (on earth a fleshly body; in eternity a body immortal).

 

[DHK]

Ezek 28:18

Ezek 28

<Speaking of Satan>
18
"By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
[b] It has consumed you,

What consumed Satan?
KJV "It shall devour thee." As we have seen before, devour does not mean annihilate. In a related passage devour meant devour continually. Howver that part is figurative as you well know. The entire prophecy was spoken to the King of Tyrus. And the King of Tyrus would be judged by fire. He had profaned the sanctuaries.

And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."'"

And so it was with the King of Tyrus. The people remembered him no more. "cease to be forever" is simply a figurative expression meaning to be forgotten.

Ps 104:35
Ps 104.

35Let

sinners be consumed

from the earth
And let the wicked be no more [/b]
Bless the LORD, O my soul
Praise the LORD!

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

The concept of kill and destroy in the Psalms refers to the body not the soul. When will you learn context?

Matt 10

28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather [b

]fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Destroy does not mean annihilate. It is to destroy by eternal fire, that is by being separated from God for all eternity. Many things are destroyed but still in existence. If a cup of coffee is spilt on my laptop I might consider it destroyed as far as its use to me is concerned, but it still exists. It is not annihilated. Someday the maker may replace the keyboard and whatevr may be wrong with so that it lives again, but it will not be perfect. It will live with all other corrupted computers. Corruption will live with corruption, but it will live.
But for the born again, this corruption shall put on incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
--It is not so for the unsaved, but they will live for all eternity in the Lake of Fire.

 

[BobRyan]

The text compares "KILL the body" done in THIS life when we realy SEE real people killed and their bodies reduced TO DUST -- to the idea of not ONLY Kill but utterly DESTROY the body (and the soul as well) in the lake of fire - in Matt 10:28 and in the reference in Luke.

Impossible to miss.

And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."

This is spoken of Satan who was in the Garden of God and walked amidst the stones of fire on the mountain of God. But man-made tradition must not only turn a blind eye to that - it must ALSO reject the notion that the king of Tyre could possibly "CEASE to be forever" since for those who cling to man-made tradition the wicked are eternal immortal beings!!

Truly and doctrine of the dark ages.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK said of Rev 20 and the lake of fire --

The scene is a physical battle with actual people involved. Those decoured are the bodies of the people that are following Satan. Yes bodies can be destroyed or devoured. No one here questions that. But both their bodies and spirits will stand again before the Great White Throne Judgement. There is a second resurrection
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=945307&postcount=112

Now DHK has totally wiped out his own argument.


Going back to Matt 10:28
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul[/b]; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

DHK has admitted that in that destruction of the body - it is complete and utter destruction -- yet God says this is the case with BOTH the body AND the soul in Matt 10!!

The very thing you seek to deny DHK while ADMITTING that in fact that body IS utterly destroyed in the lake of fire!!

Your argument just collapsed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The text compares "KILL the body" done in THIS life when we realy SEE real people killed and their bodies reduced TO DUST -- to the idea of not ONLY Kill but utterly DESTROY the body (and the soul as well) in the lake of fire - in Matt 10:28 and in the reference in Luke.

Impossible to miss.

And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."

This is spoken of Satan who was in the Garden of God and walked amidst the stones of fire on the mountain of God. But man-made tradition must not only turn a blind eye to that - it must ALSO reject the notion that the king of Tyre could possibly "CEASE to be forever" since for those who cling to man-made tradition the wicked are eternal immortal beings!!

Truly and doctrine of the dark ages.

In Christ,

Bob

Right Bob! And how is Satan, a spirit being, turned to ashes? Please do tell how spirits become ashes. Read the entire passage. Go to the beginning of the passage where it specifically says

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him,
--The body of the king of Tyrus would be turned to ashes, not Satan.
Nobody now remembers the king of Tyrus. Do you Bob. What is his first and last name. What were his children's names? How much of the king of Tyre do you remember Bob? Thus the meaning "cease to be forever." It is figurative. We knnow from Rev.20:10 that Satan will not cease to be forever.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
But you said he would cease Bob! I hardly think so. He shall be tormented day and night forever and ever--as shall every unsaved person.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[BobRyan]

Ezek 28
12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13
"You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14
"You were the anointed cherub who covers,[/b]
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15
"You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.


No Human could ever meet this description. It is obviously the covering Cherub that fell who was PERFECT from the day he was CREATED until iniquity was found in him due to his pride.

But what is sad - is that the dark ages superstition has wicked man as an immortal eternal being so that NOT ONLY can it not be true that Satan would ever "cease to be" -- but EVEN wicked men could never "cease to be"..

How sad that these dark ages superstitions persist to this very day EVEN though God says...

And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."

Here is the hollow argument given in contradiction to this scripture ...

DHK

how is Satan, a spirit being, turned to ashes?

AS IF DHK had done some kind of laboratory experiment on Lucifer to PROVE that God could not do what God said he would do in Ezek 28.

How can you possibly be satisified with such a defense DHK?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

AS IF DHK had done some kind of laboratory experiment on Lucifer to PROVE that God could not do what God said he would do in Ezek 28.

How can you possibly be satisified with such a defense DHK?

In Christ,

Bob

Some of the chapter does indeed describe Lucifer or Satan, but not the whole chapter. Much of it is directly addressed to the King of Tyrus. If one is going to rightly divide the word of truth he must be able to discern which Scripture is applicable to which person. It is quite obvious that spirits do not become ashes but people do.

 

[BobRyan]

This is the easy part.

Fire comes from within from "the midst of you" to consume you -- and you will be SEEN "o covering cherub"...



16 "By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.

17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.


18 "By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And [b]I have turned you to ashes on the earth[/b]
In the eyes of all who see you.

19 "All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"


The bottom line is that Satan himself is not immortal not eternal NOR is the wicked king who is here set as a type of Satan. BOTH will "cease to be forever" -- but in the case of Satan HE will have fire brought forth from the midst of him -

Yet BOTH will be consumed BOTH will be turned to ashes BOTH will "cease to be forever" because NEITHER of them is eternal - "God ALONE possesses iimmortality" according to 1Tim 6 - and even if that scripture were not true -- God ALONE is the "sustainer of all life" according to Col 1 Christ ALONE has "life WITHIN Himself" -- for it is the distinct characteristic of God that nothing ELSE sustain him.

God says of the wicked - that He will destroy them, consume and turn them to dust... and He will

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

God says of the wicked - that He will destroy them, consume and turn them to dust... and He will

In Christ,

Bob

And that is precisely why he wrote:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I suppose if you want to consider "tormented day and night for ever and ever" as destruction, then that is your perogative. I prefer to believe what the Bible says, and not take OT passages out of context in order to fit some preconceived idea coming from a false religion.