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HELL- Does it Burn Forever and Ever?

Shiloh

New Member
The bottom line is that Satan himself is not immortal not eternal NOR is the wicked king who is here set as a type of Satan. BOTH will "cease to be forever" -- but in the case of Satan HE will have fire brought forth from the midst of him -

Yet BOTH will be consumed BOTH will be turned to ashes BOTH will "cease to be forever" because NEITHER of them is eternal - "God ALONE possesses iimmortality" according to 1Tim 6 - and even if that scripture were not true -- God ALONE is the "sustainer of all life" according to Col 1 Christ ALONE has "life WITHIN Himself" -- for it is the distinct characteristic of God that nothing ELSE sustain him.


God says of the wicked - that He will destroy them, consume and turn them to dust... and He will

In Christ,

Bob


Bob, you are wrong again. I, me through the Grace of God and the Blood of Jesus Christ am going to live for ever, eternally! You have been trained and trained well I might add in a corrupt religion. A religion of works and in denial of most of the cardinal doctrines of the Bible. If God tells us that hell is a place where the worm dyeth not and the fire is not quenched then I believe it. I fear for you. If you don't junk the stinking stuff Mrs. White sold you and trust Christ by faith and faith alone you will find out yourself.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
BobRyan said:
This is the easy part.

Fire comes from within from "the midst of you" to consume you -- and you will be SEEN "o covering cherub"...



16 "By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And
you sinned
;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub
,
From the midst of the stones of fire.


17 "Your heart was
lifted up because of your beauty;

You
corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I
cast you to the ground;

I put you before kings,
That
they may see you.


18 "By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have
brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And [b
]I have turned you to ashes on the earth[/b]
In the eyes of all who see you.

19 "All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"


The bottom line is that Satan himself is not immortal not eternal NOR is the wicked king who is here set as a type of Satan. BOTH will "cease to be forever" -- but in the case of Satan HE will have fire brought forth from the midst of him -

Yet BOTH will be consumed BOTH will be turned to ashes BOTH will "cease to be forever" because NEITHER of them is eternal - "God ALONE possesses iimmortality" according to 1Tim 6 - and even if that scripture were not true -- God ALONE is the "sustainer of all life" according to Col 1 Christ ALONE has "life WITHIN Himself" -- for it is the distinct characteristic of God that nothing ELSE sustain him.

God says of the wicked - that He will destroy them, consume and turn them to dust... and He will


Quoting Rev 14:10 about the wicked tormented day and night forever and ever IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb AND OF His Holy ones -- only worsens the problems for those who choose to ignore the texts I listed above.

In Christ,

Bob
 

ccdnt

New Member
From "Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell - Part Two" -
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell5.html
(emphasis added)

Annihilationists believe that words like "perish," "destroy," and "cut off" indicate total annihilation. Fudge declares that these words "seem clearly to say what the conditionalist wishes to convey ... and the conditionalist is confident that the ordinary man in the street can tell us what those words usually mean to him." [16]

The most common term translated "destroy" in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word abad. It is used to describe the fate of the wicked, as in, for example, Proverbs 11:10. But should we understand this destruction to mean total annihilation?

It is clear from other Old Testament passages using this word that abad need not mean annihilation. [17] The word has a range of meaning. For example, Numbers 21:29 says that the people of Chemosh were "destroyed" (abad). But this is a reference to their being sold into slavery, not to their annihilation. In 1 Samuel 9:3 and 20, the word is used in reference to Saul's "lost donkeys" (athonoth abadoth). In this context, the word means "lost," not "annihilated." In Psalm 31:12, a vessel is "broken" (abad), not annihilated. Here, the meaning is that the vessel is rendered unfit for use, not that it has lapsed into nonexistence. It simply is not true that abad, "without exception," must mean annihilation. [18]

Evildoers are also said to be "cut off." Fudge and Pinnock both cite Psalm 37:22, 28, 34, and 38 as representative. [19] These verses, they believe, prove the utter annihilation of the wicked. The word used here is carath. But note that this same word is used to describe the Messiah being "cut off" (Dan. 9:26), who certainly was not annihilated. Even if one admits that the wicked are "annihilated" in the sense of being removed from earthly existence (as Jesus was), this would not prove that they are removed from any existence.

Turning to the New Testament, annihilationists claim that the Greek word apollumi conveys total annihilation. Stott asserts that the verb apollumi means "destroy," and the noun apoleia means "destruction." He cites Matthew 2:13, 12:14, and 27:4, which refer to Herod's desire to destroy the baby Jesus, and the later Jewish plot to have Him executed. Stott then mentions Matthew 10:28 (cf. James 4:12): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy [apolesai] both soul and body in hell." [20] He regards this "destruction" as a reference to the soul's total annihilation in hell. Stott also offers the contrast between believers and unbelievers as manifest proof: "If believers are hoi sozomenoi (those who are being saved), then unbelievers are hoi apollumenoi (those who are perishing). This phrase occurs in 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:15; 4:3, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:10." [21] He believes that this language of destruction points to the total annihilation of the wicked.

Stott concludes: "It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; ... it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing." [22]

Careful scrutiny of passages using these words shows, however, that they do not teach annihilation. Consider 1 Corinthians 1:18, one of the passages cited by Stott. This passage tells us that "the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing [tois apollumenois]." This participle is in the present tense, which, as Robert Reymond rightly notes, "describes existing people who are presently perishing. The verb does not suggest that their future state will be non-existence." [23]

As Reymond points out, Luke 15:8-9 uses the word to describe the lost but existing coin. In Luke 15:4 and 6 it describes the lost but existing sheep. The prodigal (but existing) son is described by this term in Luke 15:17, 24. [24] Murray Harris cites other passages, such as John 11:50, Acts 5:37, 1 Corinthians 10:9-10, and Jude 11, where the concept of destruction (apoleia) or perishing (apolusthai) need not imply annihilation. [25] Indeed, as Albrecht Oepke remarks in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, "What is meant here [in passages speaking of divine judgment] is not a simple extinction of existence, but an everlasting state of torment and death." [26]


It is true that apoleia is often translated "destruction" or "ruin." But Charles Hodge explains how "destruction" or "ruin" differs from annihilation: "To destroy is to ruin. The nature of that ruin depends on the nature of the subject of which it is predicated. A thing is ruined when it is rendered unfit for use; when it is in such a state that it can no longer answer the end for which it was designed ... A soul is utterly and forever destroyed when it is reprobated, alienated from God, rendered a fit companion only for the devil and his angels." [27]

Roger Nicole offers an illustration that highlights in a very lucid way the truth of Hodge's explanation. We speak of an automobile as wrecked, ruined, demolished, or "totalled," "not only when its constituent parts have been melted or scattered away, but also when they have been so damaged and twisted that the car has become completely unserviceable." [28]

"Consume"
Annihilationists also point to words translated "consume" or "consumed" in the Old and New Testaments as proof that the wicked are annihilated. Pinnock states, for example, that the Bible repeatedly "uses the imagery of fire consuming (not torturing) what is thrown into it. The images of fire and destruction together strongly suggest annihilation rather than unending torture." [29] Pinnock then cites Malachi 4:1 as a case in point.

Stott likewise claims that the imagery of fire does not refer to conscious torment, even though all of us who have experienced being burned have felt acute pain. He says that the main function of fire is not to cause pain but to secure destruction, as in the case of an incinerator. The Bible speaks of a "consuming fire" and of "burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt. 3:12; cf. Luke 3:17). Stott concludes, "The fire itself is termed 'eternal' and 'unquenchable' but it would be very odd if what is thrown into it proved indestructible. Our expectation would be the opposite: it would be consumed forever, not tormented forever. Hence it is the smoke (evidence that the fire has done its work) which 'rises forever and ever' (Rev. 14:11; cf. 19:3)." [30]

In response, Robert Morey and others have shown conclusively that the Hebrew words translated "consume" are used in many contexts where the meaning cannot possibly be annihilation (e.g., Ps. 78:45; Lam. 3:4; Ezek. 13:13; etc.). [31] (Since space does not permit an exposition of these passages, I refer the interested reader to Morey's fine discussion.) Therefore, we should not assume automatically that the mere presence of the word "consume" ipso facto proves annihilation. Context is always determinative.
Now, let us grant that fire normally represents that which consumes or annihilates its fuel until nothing but ashes are left. Normal fire dies out once the fuel has been consumed. But the fire of judgment is no normal fire: it is described as an eternal fire (Jude 7) which is unquenchable (Mark 9:48). The fact that the smoke is said to rise "forever and ever" is not evidence that "the fire has done its work," as Stott wrongly infers, but rather that the fire is doing its work through a process of endless combustion. Stott replaces the "unquenchable" fire of Jesus with the "quenchable" fire of the annihilationists.

The same argument holds for the undying worms (Mark 9:48). Worms are able to live as long as there is food for them to consume. Once their food supply has been consumed, the worms eventually die. But the torments of hell are likened to undying, not dying worms. This is because their supply of food — the wicked — never ceases.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
#1. No immortal worms
#2. No worms that "live until the food runs out"
#3. In Jude we are told that Soddom and Gomorrah are perfect examples of cities undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

#4. In Matt 10 we are told that God destroys "BOTH body and soul" in fiery hell.

#5. In Rev 14:10 we are told that the ENTIRE PROCESS of torment and suffering of the wicked takes place "IN the PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His holy ones".

Hell not only BURNS the wicked and TORMENTS the wicked - it DESTROYS the wicked "both Body AND soul".

As for ways to escape the meaning in Matt 10 about God DESTROYING both body and soul -- notice that the comparison is to KILLING the body in real life -- and the progression goes from the weak state in THIS life where you can only KILL the body to the advanced state where God not only kills but DESTROYS the body in fiery hell - and not only does He destroy IT - He ALSO destroys the soul. The progression takes the argument BEYOND kill -- to a point of utter and complete "destruction" when KILL means "body is killed AND goes back to dust" -- destruction takes it to the next level.

IN Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Quoting CCDNT's quote of Scott --

Turning to the New Testament, annihilationists claim that the Greek word apollumi conveys total annihilation. Stott asserts that the verb apollumi means "destroy," and the noun apoleia means "destruction." He cites Matthew 2:13, 12:14, and 27:4, which refer to Herod's desire to destroy the baby Jesus, and the later Jewish plot to have Him executed. Stott then mentions Matthew 10:28 (cf. James 4:12): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy [apolesai] both soul and body in hell." [20] He regards this "destruction" as a reference to the soul's total annihilation in hell. Stott also offers the contrast between believers and unbelievers as manifest proof: "If believers are hoi sozomenoi (those who are being saved), then unbelievers are hoi apollumenoi (those who are perishing). This phrase occurs in 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:15; 4:3, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:10." [21] He believes that this language of destruction points to the total annihilation of the wicked.

Stott concludes: "It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; ... it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing." [22]

What a great point!

Further more - in Col 1 we are told that Christ is both the CREATOR and the SUSTAINER of ALL things -- that means that Satan does not exist "because he is immortal" rather he exists because Christ CAUSES him to exist as the SUSTAINER of all things. Christ points out in John 5 that it is a unique attribute of the Godhead ALONE to "have life within" themselves.

Lucifer was in fact CREATED by God the Son to start with! The text is perfectly accurate. And sin CONTINUES just as long as Christ chooses to SUSTAIN the wicked in life. Therefore His stated intent to DESTROY them - is also a stated intent that He will not SUSTAIN ETERNAL SINNING - which as 1John 3:4 states is rebellion against His Word - His Law.

In Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
It is true that apoleia is often translated "destruction" or "ruin." But Charles Hodge explains how "destruction" or "ruin" differs from annihilation: "To destroy is to ruin. The nature of that ruin depends on the nature of the subject of which it is predicated. A thing is ruined when it is rendered unfit for use; when it is in such a state that it can no longer answer the end for which it was designed ... A soul is utterly and forever destroyed when it is reprobated, alienated from God, rendered a fit companion only for the devil and his angels." [27]

Roger Nicole offers an illustration that highlights in a very lucid way the truth of Hodge's explanation. We speak of an automobile as wrecked, ruined, demolished, or "totalled," "not only when its constituent parts have been melted or scattered away, but also when they have been so damaged and twisted that the car has become completely unserviceable." [28]

The flaw here is that in Matt 10 where we see "destroy" being used - it is used as a PROGRESSION showing that in this life we see that they can KILL the BODY -- but in hell fire God will not only KILL but will DESTROY the body and NOT the body only -- BOTH body AND SOUL.

This PROGRESSION must by definition go BEYOND the mere killing of the body -- to the point of total destruction. ARguing that in fact it is a REGRESSION from KILL down to "the physical body is to REMAIN active but in a less usable form" - is totally against sound exegesis of the text in Matt 10.

But what is more devastating to the position that argues FOR ceaseless torture is that nobody today argues that the physical body seen today IS IMMORTAL or that our decaying tent is EVER "made immortal by the fires of hell" rather the argument is that the SOUL and/or SPIRIT of man is/or-becomes immortal and burns forever in hell. Yet God declares of THIS physical body that BOTH IT and the SOUL are DESTROYED in fiery hell.

In Rev 14:10 it is clear that the total destruction of the body AND the soul is preceeded by literal - fiery TORMENT.

In Christ,

Bob
 
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Shiloh

New Member
Just in case there is someone looking at this for the first time and they don't know BobR is a SDA and the SDA and JW's don't believe a lot of the Bible.

For instance, Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The SDA is a cult that will mix truth and fiction to try and convince the world that their leader Mrs. White was not a phony. The same excuse the devil used in Gen. 3:4 Ye shall not surely die:
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
ccdnt said:
From "Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell - Part Two" -

Now, let us grant that fire normally represents that which consumes or annihilates its fuel until nothing but ashes are left. Normal fire dies out once the fuel has been consumed.

this is a good point - however it is much MORE OFTEN the case that fire does NOT complete consume because it simply goes out on its own BEFORE the entire tree or the entire house or entire log is reduced to nothing but ashes.

So a Fire that can not be quenched - addressed the very real and much more common issue of fire that does NOT complete consume.

But the fire of judgment is no normal fire: it is described as an eternal fire (Jude 7) which is unquenchable (Mark 9:48).

indeed -- as we see in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah according to Jude!! A PERFECT example of Eternal fire and the cities that undergo the PUNISHMENT of eternal fire

The fact that the smoke is said to rise "forever and ever" is not evidence that "the fire has done its work," as Stott wrongly infers, but rather that the fire is doing its work through a process of endless combustion.

Not true. Such an argument is actually arguing for ETERNAL FUEL not eternal FIRE.

But Isaiah ALSO shows the destruction of Edom as an prime example of SMOKE ascending up forever -- which is another example of destruction that has ALREADY happened.

The same argument holds for the undying worms (Mark 9:48). Worms are able to live as long as there is food for them to consume.

No human alive has EVER encountered a worm that could live AS LONG as there was food!!

Once their food supply has been consumed, the worms eventually die.

you have got to be kidding! The OTHER way they die is that worms are NOT immortal. Take earth worms as a prime example.

In Christ,

Bob
 

av1611jim

New Member
Heretic alert. Heretic alert.

Ellen G. White and her folowers.

Heretic alert.



(this has been a pulic service anouncement.)
 

Shiloh

New Member
No human alive has EVER encountered a worm that could live AS LONG as there was food!!

Quote:
Once their food supply has been consumed, the worms eventually die.


you have got to be kidding! The OTHER way they die is that worms are NOT immortal. Take earth worms as a prime example.


Bob


Oh I'm sorry BobR, how dumb of me to believe the Bible where it says the Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

The term "their worm" is in reference to the mind. A grade school Bible study will tell you that. It;s you people in the cults that are pushing the "doctrins from hell" that don't believe it. Something a simple as the bush in Exodus that wouldn't burn up should tell you that your doctring is of the devil.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
av1611jim said:
Heretic alert. Heretic alert.
Ellen G. White and her folowers.
Heretic alert.
(this has been a pulic service anouncement.)

:applause: :laugh:

Jim argument runs aground for all the world to see!

What a riot!

Let me know when you tire of ranting and choose to revive your failed argument about "soul lost while spirit saved" AFTER you have confessed to the "NO FAITH" problem in James 2. The problem is that Christ declares "DESTRUCTION" for the wicked in Matt 10 not "spirit saved while soul lost".

You are caught on the horns of your OWN contradictory statements so now you turn to ranting??

How "instructive".

If you want "Company" in that mud slinging - I think Shiloh is more than happy to join you. But rather than pariing up at that level - come back to the Bible and turn to the Light of God's Word. The DESTRUCTION predicted in Matt 10 of BOTH body AND soul is REAL and is a progression from the "KILL the body" problem in THIS life so that it is not ONLY KILL but also DESTROY and it happens not ONLY to THIS BODY but ALSO to the soul. And having the soul DESTROYED in that way leaves no room for "yest but spirit saved".

In Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Shiloh said:

Bob


Oh I'm sorry BobR, how dumb of me to believe the Bible where it says the Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

The term "their worm" is in reference to the mind. A grade school Bible study will tell you that. It;s you people in the cults that are pushing the "doctrins from hell" that don't believe it. Something a simple as the bush in Exodus that wouldn't burn up should tell you that your doctring is of the devil.

In your ceaseless efforts to gloss over the text of scripture - you leave the door open for me to continually remind you of your error as found IN your misreading of the text.

The issue is not "immortal FUEL" the issue is worms that NORMALLY DIE of NATURAL causes in this life long BEFORE the fuel runs out -- and the point is that the worms and the fire WILL continue to consume until the very end -- THEY do not simply die out BEFORE all the fuel is consumed AS THEY DO in this life.

your READ eternal fire and SAY "eternal fuel" you READ that the worm does not die but CONTINUES to consume until all as gone but say "ETERNAL FOOD".

The illustration (analogy) Christ gives is that the consuming process is utterly complete NOT that the fuel and the food KEEP REFRESHING and REBUILDING so that WORMS will have eternal life!! (As if that is all it would take for worms to be immortal).

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Quoting CCDNT's quote of Scott --

Turning to the New Testament, annihilationists claim that the Greek word apollumi conveys total annihilation. Stott asserts that the verb apollumi means "destroy," and the noun apoleia means "destruction." He cites Matthew 2:13, 12:14, and 27:4, which refer to Herod's desire to destroy the baby Jesus, and the later Jewish plot to have Him executed. Stott then mentions Matthew 10:28 (cf. James 4:12): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy [apolesai] both soul and body in hell." [20] He regards this "destruction" as a reference to the soul's total annihilation in hell. Stott also offers the contrast between believers and unbelievers as manifest proof: "If believers are hoi sozomenoi (those who are being saved), then unbelievers are hoi apollumenoi (those who are perishing). This phrase occurs in 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:15; 4:3, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:10." [21] He believes that this language of destruction points to the total annihilation of the wicked.

Stott concludes: "It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; ... it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing." [22]

What a great point!

Further more - in Col 1 we are told that Christ is both the CREATOR and the SUSTAINER of ALL things -- that means that Satan does not exist "because he is immortal" rather he exists because Christ CAUSES him to exist as the SUSTAINER of all things. Christ points out in John 5 that it is a unique attribute of the Godhead ALONE to "have life within" themselves.

Lucifer was in fact CREATED by God the Son to start with! The text is perfectly accurate. And sin CONTINUES just as long as Christ chooses to SUSTAIN the wicked in life. Therefore His stated intent to DESTROY them - is also a stated intent that He will not SUSTAIN ETERNAL SINNING - which as 1John 3:4 states is rebellion against His Word - His Law.

In Christ,

Bob
 

ccdnt

New Member
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. "

What I see here is a good portrayal of what to be concerned about if one continues in sin and does not turn to Christ...an unending torture in fire that is never quenched.

All I see when I see people try to explain it otherwise is a lot of unecessary twisting of Scripture. If God was trying to get the point of across of annihilation about hell, then I would say that He did not present it in a very understandable way. God is not the author of confusion. I think that the doctrine of unending suffering in the lake of fire "falls out" of Scripture when a "plain and straightforward" reading of Scripture is given. To get the doctrine of annihilation out of Scripture, I see where one would first have to think that "maybe the Bible does not teach unending torment"..."maybe it teaches that unbelievers will cease to exist"...and then try to "read" that doctrine into the text.

I have not seen anyone yet that believes in annihilation respond to what was stated about the danger of unbelievers believing this doctrine. If the worst to fear of not accepting Christ is non-existence, then there is not really much to fear. The unbeliever can sin all he wants, never worry about Christ, and in the end, after he is annihilated, he will not even know he ever existed in the first place. A non-existent person cannot suffer at all. This is the danger associated with this teaching.
 

Dustin

New Member
av1611jim said:
Heretic alert. Heretic alert.

Ellen G. White and her folowers.

Heretic alert.



(this has been a pulic service anouncement.)

Bob laughs, but I think you are correct.

Check this out:

From the 28 Fundamental Beliefs on the official SDA site

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.

Despite the fact that her writings, unlike those of true prophets like Jesus Christ Himself, Paul and John, contradict themselves and are in some parts plagarized from other heritics, such as Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. The Bible forbids date setting and fortune telling, yet setting a date for Christ's return was what brought the SDA church into existance in 1844. When that date came and went and Christ did not return, they simply concocted the story that Christ , in fact, moved into the holiest of holies, in the Heavenly Temple. Or at least something to that effect. They did this to convince their followers who had not yet left that they were credible.

Ellen White said she saw in a vision that it was revealed to her the keeping the Sabbath was the greatest Commandment. She is in opposition with the Lord Jesus Christ who said in Matthew 22:37-38,
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Now why would Ellen White directly contradict Scripture, which a true prophet would never do? Answer: She's not a true prophet. She was a false teacher whose writings, even today, are leading people astray. They are not authoritative in any case, because they contradict Scripture. The SDA's claim "sola scriptura" but that's only according to the "authority" of Ellen G. White.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin
 
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av1611jim

New Member
Dustin said:
Bob laughs, but I think you are correct.

Check this out:

From the 28 Fundamental Beliefs on the official SDA site

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.

Despite the fact that her writings, unlike those of true prophets like Jesus Christ Himself, Paul and John, contradict themselves and are in some parts plagarized from other heritics, such as Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. The Bible forbids date setting and fortune telling, yet setting a date for Christ's return was what brought the SDA church into existance in 1844. When that date came and went and Christ did not return, they simply concocted the story that Christ , in fact, moved into the holiest of holies, in the Heavenly Temple. Or at least something to that effect. They did this to convince their followers who had not yet left that they were credible.

Ellen White said she saw in a vision that it was revealed to her the keeping the Sabbath was the greatest Commandment. She is in opposition with the Lord Jesus Christ who said in Matthew 22:37-38,
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Now why would Ellen White directly contradict Scripture, which a true prophet would never do? Answer: She's not a true prophet. She was a false teacher whose writings, even today, are leading people astray. They are not authoritative in any case, because they contradict Scripture. The SDA's claim "sola scriptura" but that's only according to the "authority" of Ellen G. White.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

And where is Bob or Claudia's refutation of this?


crickets......chirp!!!

And one more thing FYI Bob and Claudia. I was SDA for THREE years b4 God led me out of that mess.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
alert alert something-something crickets... etc etc

I just love it when the vaccuous posting reaches new lows in response to the points of scripture raised on this thread!!

Facinating!

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Turning to the New Testament, annihilationists claim that the Greek word apollumi conveys total annihilation. Stott asserts that the verb apollumi means "destroy," and the noun apoleia means "destruction." He cites Matthew 2:13, 12:14, and 27:4, which refer to Herod's desire to destroy the baby Jesus, and the later Jewish plot to have Him executed. Stott then mentions Matthew 10:28 (cf. James 4:12): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy [apolesai] both soul and body in hell." [20] He regards this "destruction" as a reference to the soul's total annihilation in hell. Stott also offers the contrast between believers and unbelievers as manifest proof: "If believers are hoi sozomenoi (those who are being saved), then unbelievers are hoi apollumenoi (those who are perishing). This phrase occurs in 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:15; 4:3, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:10." [21] He believes that this language of destruction points to the total annihilation of the wicked.

Stott concludes: "It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; ... it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing." [22]

What a great point!

Further more - in Col 1 we are told that Christ is both the CREATOR and the SUSTAINER of ALL things -- that means that Satan does not exist "because he is immortal" rather he exists because Christ CAUSES him to exist as the SUSTAINER of all things. Christ points out in John 5 that it is a unique attribute of the Godhead ALONE to "have life within" themselves.

Lucifer was in fact CREATED by God the Son to start with! The text is perfectly accurate. And sin CONTINUES just as long as Christ chooses to SUSTAIN the wicked in life. Therefore His stated intent to DESTROY them - is also a stated intent that He will not SUSTAIN ETERNAL SINNING - which as 1John 3:4 states is rebellion against His Word - His Law.

The point is not the God CREATED SIN (added due to an off-the-wall topic that came up recently) for God created a FREE WILL universe where beings CHOOSE without a robotic-dependancy on "God MAKING them choosel" - by definition.

But the point is that it is God that STILL sustains their life EVEN IN that choice. God must actively sustain them in SIN and REBELLION for sin and rebellion to CONTINUE to exist. This is why God says in Matt 10 that He DESTROYS BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell. It is why He states that sin comes to an - end - sin and sinners "CONSUMED" reduced to ashes.

In Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
These texts show that it is literal, physcial and destructive of BOTH the cities AND the people.

Jude
7 just as [b]Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities[/b] around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
[

They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God sent as ‘judgment” as the “punishment” of eternal fire..

Luke 17:29-30
29 but on the day that Lot went out from [b]Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.[/b]
30 "It will be [b]just the same[/b] on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.




2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned [b]the cities[/b] of Sodom and Gomorrah to [b]destruction by reducing them to ashes[/b], having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

And the most devastating part of this is the crystal clear statement in Jude --

exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
 
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