Hey everyone

[Dave...]

Hi everyone.

I always considered myself a traditional reformed believer but am now starting to question that understanding of Scripture, at least in part. It's very hard to have rational conversations in this matter because most of these discussions are old and worn out. Everyone has drawn their lines in the sand. But I believe I'll bring some unique insight into these discussions and am looking for honest feedback, good or bad, instead of the usual chest puffing false bravado that usually accompanies these discussions.

My understanding of Scripture in this matter is unique in a few ways that takes it out of the traditional discussions. It wasn't until I grew in my understanding of the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the spiritual mechanics of being born again, especially within the context of the transition from the OT to the NT that I began to see things differently and question everything from the foundation up. Not the Gospel, mind you, but the whole idea that some of the more traditional theological camps are built from. I know, red flags, right? It's not like that, I promise.

I was on forums for a while about twenty years, then gave it a rest for about ten years. I just recently started posting again and am looking for a place to settle in for a while. Looking forward to some good discussions.

Dave...

 

[Dr. Bob]

As a non-Baptist, you can READ discussions in "Baptist-only" but not participate. All the "Other Christian" forums are open - BUT they will contain a large variety of thought. Some "Christian" in name only and are not born again. Just be aware of that. Not all the answers there will be evangelical or orthodox in Christian thinking.

Welcome. Enjoy reading and the discussions.

 

[Salty]

and remember - even in the "Baptist section" if there are 5 participates expect about 8 opinions!

 

[Dave...]

Sounds like I'll fit right in. I'll make it work. What must one do to become a Baptist?

 

[kyredneck]

Sounds like I'll fit right in. I'll make it work. What must one do to become a Baptist?

The C vs A forum is open to all.

Welcome to the BB.

 

[atpollard]

Sounds like I'll fit right in. I'll make it work. What must one do to become a Baptist?

Accept Biblical truth! [sorry, I could not resist.]

Short answer: SAY you are a Baptist.
Long answer: Embrace the Baptist Distictives (those beliefs that distinguish Baptists from other Christian denominations).

(From an AI generated search) ...

Baptist distinctives are core beliefs and practices that differentiate Baptists from other Christian denominations. These include Biblical Authority, Autonomy of the Local Church, Priesthood of the Believer, Two Ordinances (baptism and the Lord's Supper), Individual Soul Liberty, Saved Church Membership, and Separation of Church and State. They can be remembered by the acronym B.A.P.T.I.S.T.

Here's a more detailed look at each distinctive:

• Biblical Authority: Baptists believe the Bible is the ultimate and final authority on all matters of faith and practice.
• Autonomy of the Local Church: Each local church is self-governing and accountable only to Christ, not to any higher human authority or denomination.
• Priesthood of the Believer: All believers have direct access to God through Christ and are called to serve Him in various capacities.
• Two Ordinances: Baptists recognize two ordinances: believer's baptism by immersion and the Lord's Supper (communion).
• Individual Soul Liberty: Each person has the freedom to choose what they believe and how they worship without coercion.
• Saved, Baptized Church Membership: Membership in a Baptist church is open to those who have made a personal profession of faith in Christ and have been baptized.
• Separation of Church and State: Baptists advocate for a clear distinction between the roles and responsibilities of religious institutions and the government.

If you are "saved" (belong to Jesus) then you are a Christian, and if you agree with the above, then you are probably also a Baptist.

 

[Dr. Bob]

What must one do to become a Baptist?

Easiest way is to join a Baptist church. If you know of one in your area, ask to visit with the pastor for 10-minutes to learn about the church. (I would be happy to recommend a church in your area if you pm me the city)

They will want to be sure you are born-again by grace (not works or ritual or birth) and you should be able to say, "About such and such a time in my life I heard the Gospel, repented of my sin, and trust Jesus Christ's work on the cross for my salvation." For me, it was Mar 17, 1957.

Then they will ask when/where you were baptized by immersion AFTER your salvation as a testimony of what Christ did for you in saving you. For me it was Apr 6, 1958, at the Fourth Baptist Church of Minneapolis.

 

[Dave...]

Accept Biblical truth! [sorry, I could not resist.]

Short answer: SAY you are a Baptist.
Long answer: Embrace the Baptist Distictives (those beliefs that distinguish Baptists from other Christian denominations).

(From an AI generated search) ...

Baptist distinctives are core beliefs and practices that differentiate Baptists from other Christian denominations. These include Biblical Authority, Autonomy of the Local Church, Priesthood of the Believer, Two Ordinances (baptism and the Lord's Supper), Individual Soul Liberty, Saved Church Membership, and Separation of Church and State. They can be remembered by the acronym B.A.P.T.I.S.T.

Here's a more detailed look at each distinctive:

• Biblical Authority: Baptists believe the Bible is the ultimate and final authority on all matters of faith and practice.
• Autonomy of the Local Church: Each local church is self-governing and accountable only to Christ, not to any higher human authority or denomination.
• Priesthood of the Believer: All believers have direct access to God through Christ and are called to serve Him in various capacities.
• Two Ordinances: Baptists recognize two ordinances: believer's baptism by immersion and the Lord's Supper (communion).
• Individual Soul Liberty: Each person has the freedom to choose what they believe and how they worship without coercion.
• Saved, Baptized Church Membership: Membership in a Baptist church is open to those who have made a personal profession of faith in Christ and have been baptized.
• Separation of Church and State: Baptists advocate for a clear distinction between the roles and responsibilities of religious institutions and the government.

If you are "saved" (belong to Jesus) then you are a Christian, and if you agree with the above, then you are probably also a Baptist.

Hey @atpollard

That sounds like standard stuff. Anabaptist basically stresses the opposite of Catholicism's errors. Is that correct? I was given 'the trail of blood' from a friend at work when I was first saved.

I've mostly studied under John MacArthur and Alistair Begg most of my life, though I never attended either ones church. I live about an hour from Beggs church. I like David Jerimiah and a few others also.

I'm hesitant to lay claim to any denomination because there's usually baggage that comes with that. But I see that you're making an effort to avoid that in your acronym. I always understood Baptists to be a wide variety, theologically speaking, that potentially covered the whole spectrum. Perhaps the acronym would explain most of that.

I started in a Pentecostal church by invitation. That's why my studies started heavily in 1 Corinthians. I wanted to test the claims being made to Scripture. And obviously, things were not adding up, as I suspected from the beginning. But those studies became very helpful down the road and played a big part in my understanding of Scripture today. I can see a purpose in it, providentially speaking.

I'll try to keep an open mind about the denomination thing.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Easiest way is to join a Baptist church. If you know of one in your area, ask to visit with the pastor for 10-minutes to learn about the church. (I would be happy to recommend a church in your area if you pm me the city)

They will want to be sure you are born-again by grace (not works or ritual or birth) and you should be able to say, "About such and such a time in my life I heard the Gospel, repented of my sin, and trust Jesus Christ's work on the cross for my salvation." For me, it was Mar 17, 1957.

Then they will ask when/where you were baptized by immersion AFTER your salvation as a testimony of what Christ did for you in saving you. For me it was Apr 6, 1958, at the Fourth Baptist Church of Minneapolis.

Hey @Dr. Bob

I was water baptized at that same Pentecostal church. I have a certificate somewhere. I don't remember the exact date that I was saved. There are times early on in my faith when I struggled separating being poor in spirit, which is a good thing, and being confident in my salvation when looking at that same poor in spirit stuff from an evidence standpoint. As a result, at least early on, sometimes I would wonder if I was even saved. So the beginning was not as black and white as one would hope. I think the idea noted below so eloquently by Spurgeon helped me to balance the two and come around to solid ground. As Baptists, I'm sure that you can appreciate Spurgeon's thoughts on the matter.

It is ever the Holy Spirit's work to turn our eyes away from self to Jesus; but Satan's work is just the opposite of this, for he is constantly trying to make us regard ourselves instead of Christ. He insinuates, "Your sins are too great for pardon; you have no faith; you do not repent enough; you will never be able to continue to the end; you have not the joy of his children; you have such a wavering hold of Jesus." All these are thoughts about self, and we shall never find comfort or assurance by looking within. But the Holy Spirit turns our eyes entirely away from self: he tells us we are nothing, but that "Christ is All in All." Remember, therefore, it is not your hold of Christ that saves you--it is Christ; it is not your joy in Christ that saves you--it is Christ; it is not even faith in Christ, thought that be the instrument--it is Christ's blood and merits; therefore, look not so much to your hand with which you art grasping Christ, as to Christ; look not to your hope, but to Jesus, the source of your hope; look not to your faith, but to Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith. We shall never find happiness by looking at our prayers, our doings, or our feelings; it is what Jesus is, not what we are, that gives rest to the soul. If we would at once overcome Satan and have peace with God, it must be by "looking unto Jesus." Keep your eye simply on him; let his death, his sufferings, his merits, his glories, his intercession, be fresh upon your mind; when you wake in the morning look to him; when you lie down at night look to him. Do not let your hopes and fears come between you and Jesus; follow hard after him, and he will never fail you."

 

[Dr. Bob]

I was water baptized at that same Pentecostal church. I have a certificate somewhere. I don't remember the exact date that I was saved.

Many don't remember exact time/date. No big deal.

To SOME Baptists, though, baptism in Pentecostal church might be more of a challenge (they only think if certain Baptists immerse it is true baptism and the rest is just getting wet). Most wouldn't make an issue of it. So if a church you're talking to DOES make it a deal-breaker, I'd thank them and never darken the door again.

 

[atpollard]

I'll try to keep an open mind about the denomination thing.

Baptists are diverse because they are sort of an "anti-demnomination" (the opposite of a denomination).

The central idea of a "denomination" is Everyone believes what the CENTRAL AUTHORITY believes [Rome, Lutheran Synod, Anglican Bishop ... whatever]. Baptists hold that the only "hierarchy" is Jesus, The Local Body of Believers (a local church) and whoever they choose to lead (locally). NOBODY except God gets to tell a local body of Christians what they should believe [and God gave us the Bible for that). So there IS NO "hierarchy" to make rules for a "denomination". In a sense, every local church is a denomination of 1 church.

It really is a lot more like Paul starting churches in every town like we see in the Bible ... which is the point. Baptists arose from people reading the Bible for themselves in their own language and deciding "We should start doing that" (which the local "Official State Churches" were not.) Ta Da ... you get Baptists (Do what God says, and no bosses with funny hats).

 

[Salty]

OKAY - time for correction!!! the

1) yes denomination can refer to a CENTRAL AUTHORITY BUT not all. For the Roman Catholic church - in essence the central authority does come from the Vatican. Some denominations do not have a top layer for Central authority.

2) 2nd definition = congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices And Virtually all Baptist groups come under this definition. Thus we do not have a central authority. Some groups do have an association - as to how they operate - but final authority comes down to the local church. Now, hard core IFB will say groups like the GARBC have a Central authority - but they do not. They do elect a Council of 18 to set guidelines. For example, the Council might declare that XYZ College is not teaching the Gospel, therefore no church is to send them money or students. That would be nothing more than a recommendation. No local church is forced to abide by that decision. The most a Baptist group can do is to withdraw fellowship. Some think that SBC churches are required to support the cooperative missions program and they must use SBC Sunday School quarterlies. (I am SBC) And neither is true. Our church does give to the co-op - but we determine how much to send. In addition, we also support non SBC missionaries.

So the SBC among other groups are a denomination in that we have similar beliefs. In fact, every Baptist church is part of a denomination, as we do have some similar beliefs.

But I got a good laugh when you stated "In a sense, every local church is a denomination of 1 church" By definition, a denomination would need at least 2 churches!. But I do agree with you when you stated: "So there IS NO "hierarchy" to make rules for a "denomination" that is true as Baptists do NOT have a hierarchy to obey - only cooperative fellowship

So, our church is an independent Baptist church which voluntary cooperates with the Southern Baptist Convention.

 

[atpollard]

1) yes denomination can refer to a CENTRAL AUTHORITY BUT not all. For the Roman Catholic church - in essence the central authority does come from the Vatican. Some denominations do not have a top layer for Central authority.

Lutherans have the Book of Concord and the various Synods.
Methodists have SOMETHING (because the local congregation split from the powers that be over some liberal issue and had to leave the church building that belonged to the POWERS THAT BE).
Anglicans have a near “Catholic” hierarchy.
I am not familiar with the PCUSA, but I suspect they have something (since they had a split).

So who else is a denomination that has no “authority” over the local church? [Ignorant inquiring minds want to know. ]

 

[Salty]

International Fellowship of Bible churches

IFCA

National Association of Congregational Churches

and many more

 

[atpollard]

International Fellowship of Bible churches

IFCA

National Association of Congregational Churches

and many more

Are these true “denominations” or are they simple “associations”?
How are they different from a Baptist Church (not a denomination) being part of the SBC?

 

[Salty]

Are these true “denominations” or are they simple “associations”?
How are they different from a Baptist Church (not a denomination) being part of the SBC?

They are a denomination as they have similar beliefs.
there is no such thing as the "Baptist Church"! There are only Baptist churches!
How are they different - some of the doctrines - Though Bible churches tend to be very similar to Baptist doctrine.
(I like to joke that a Bible church is really Baptist - they just don't want to admit it!)

 

[Dave...]

Many don't remember exact time/date. No big deal.

To SOME Baptists, though, baptism in Pentecostal church might be more of a challenge (they only think if certain Baptists immerse it is true baptism and the rest is just getting wet). Most wouldn't make an issue of it. So if a church you're talking to DOES make it a deal-breaker, I'd thank them and never darken the door again.

Hey @Dr. Bob

I don't get caught up in the water immersion debates. I follow a simple rule as far as that's concerned. OT Jews already knew of the Father, and most understood the Spirit of God, unless you're the ones from Acts 19. Who they needed to publicly identify with was Jesus. That was the point of contention in the Jewish community and was enough to get them banished into the wilderness. And for the Gentiles, myself included, we would be better served to publicly identify with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I see this as a public confession before community, family and friends, and nothing more.

The one true baptism, the one that saves, is a spiritual baptism that results from a genuine faith in Jesus and His work. Jesus was the prophesied baptizer by John the Baptist, to name one. And the Holy Spirit is the agent of that baptism. By receiving that indwelling of the Holy Spirit from Jesus, we are placed into Christ, the true spiritual Church, and we are simultaneously baptized into Christs death (Gal. 2:20 Romans 6:3, Col 2:12), and raised up with Him, thus born again, (Romans 6:4-11, Col 2:13). Also a a result of being spiritual immersed into Christ (1 Cor 12:13), being one with Him, the righteousness of God is imputed (Romans 10:4), and sin is atoned for. Saved through the resurrection of Jesus Christ both practically, that's freed from the power of sin by being born again, and positionally (1 Peter 3:21). Just for the record.

Dave

 

[kyredneck]

to publicly identify with was Jesus

Spot on.

BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES - BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST

 

[Salty]

Spot on.

BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES - BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST

and full immersion = death, burial, and resurrection

 

[Dave...]

and full immersion = death, burial, and resurrection

It's kind of like Moses striking the rock with the staff two times. That made God angry because it distorted the type, or symbolism of Who and what it was pointing to in spiritual truth. That type, the rock pictured Jesus as the source of Living water. The one strike foreshadowed Christ being struck once for our salvation. Moses, by striking the Rock twice, kind of ruined the symbolic representation. I suppose water baptism, if for no other reason, without full immersion kind of destroys the type and distorts the spiritual truth that it is pointing to. I never really thought about it that way until now.

1 Cor. 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

John 4:10, 13-14 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.".... Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."