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Hey!! You with a Calvinist quiz - I wanna do it!

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Sularis, Apr 19, 2006.

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  1. Sularis

    Sularis Member

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    Gina posted on another thread

    [ April 24, 2006, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
     
    #1 Sularis, Apr 19, 2006
  2. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Whoa, it's like, deja vu.
    Who is the one man by whose disobedience you and I were made sinners? If you will not have Adam's sin then you cannot have Christ's righteousness.
     
    #2 whatever, Apr 19, 2006
  3. Sularis

    Sularis Member

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    Heee Heee - the Bible also states in various places the child is not responsible or guilty for the sins of the father.

    So let's take that principle and apply it to Adam's sin - are we guilty of his sin? No - but are we affected by its consequences - Yes

    What is the consequence - to be afflicted with a sin nature and as such be pretty much guaranteed of sinning and thus damnation sometime before puberty sets in.

    but then lets deal with your verse - why not all why many after all Im more then willing to admit that everyone will eventually sin - save Jesus and that was due to His Divine Nature.

    and the made why not a simpler tense and why in a passive form?

    Simply put through one man the opportunity for sin and death entered the world and because mankind is incredibly stupid they will en masse take that opportunity - but through another man/God the opportunity for righteousness/life has entered the world. Once again due to mankind's incredible stupidity no one will take that opportunity unless seriously "motivated".

    I have the consequences of Adam's actions - thus I have the consequences of Christ's righteousness.

    Also interesting sidenote - Most people are willing to allow everyone access and free helpings of Adam's sin - but to let them have access to Christ - God forbid! That's only for the special people not the rest of less special people.
     
    #3 Sularis, Apr 20, 2006
  4. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Romans 3:9-18 -

    9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

    "None is righteous, no, not one;
    11no one understands;
    no one seeks for God.
    12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    no one does good,
    not even one."
    13"Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive."
    "The venom of asps is under their lips."
    14"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
    15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    16in their paths are ruin and misery,
    17and the way of peace they have not known."
    18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."


    Romans 3:23 -

    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God


    Romans 5:12 -

    Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
     
    #4 Andy T., Apr 20, 2006
  5. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    If this is a slam against Calvinists, then you are wrong. We freely admit that "whosoever will" can believe on Jesus Christ. I witness and share the Gospel with all people indiscriminately.

    Where we differ is where that good will originates from - does it originate from ourselves or from God?
     
    #5 Andy T., Apr 20, 2006
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So you admit something that you don't believe? There's a word for this...dishonesty. God is not the author of dishonesty.
     
    #6 webdog, Apr 20, 2006
  7. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    So you admit something that you don't believe? There's a word for this...dishonesty. God is not the author of dishonesty. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not sure why your reply was so hostile. I believe that anyone who is so inclined may believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. This is not inconsistent with my belief in sovereign grace. Where you and I differ is from whence the inclination originates. That's all. No dishonesty.
     
    #7 Andy T., Apr 20, 2006
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I didn't think my reply was hostile, but to the point. If it came across as hostile, accept my apology.

    "whosoever will" means "anyone", or who out of everyone. Your definition of this phrase sounds like "all red trucks that are red can get a free wash" instead of "all trucks that are red can get a free wash".
     
    #8 webdog, Apr 20, 2006
  9. Dave

    Dave Member
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    I think, to use your analogy, the point is more:

    All red trucks can get a free wash. All of the red trucks like being dirty, however, and do all in their power to avoid the free wash. Some trucks are taken to the wash by their driver. Once washed the truck is clean and tries to convince the other red trucks, but their drivers like the truck to be dirty just as much as the truck does. [​IMG]

    Whosoever will means just what it says. Whoever will or has the will to. In no way does this contradict the clear fact of scripture that no-one of themselves will have the will to.
     
    #9 Dave, Apr 20, 2006
  10. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Yes, whosoever means anyone, but that is not the entire phrase. The word "will" is also included. And "will" means: 'The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action.' I know that you don't believe that those who are unwilling to believe on Christ are saved, correct? And I'm sure you believe that those who are willing are saved, right? We both agree with these truths. Once again, where we differ is from where that good will originates.

    The word 'whosoever' used in Scripture always has a modifier attached to it - usually "believe" or "will" or "obey", etc. Otherwise, if you just look at the 'whosoever' and ignore the modifier, you fall into universalism.
     
    #10 Andy T., Apr 20, 2006
  11. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Dave beat me to the punch! Good analogy! [​IMG]
     
    #11 Andy T., Apr 20, 2006
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    It does not mean whoever has the will to. "Whosoever believes" is not the noun, "whosoever" is. "Believes" is the verb. Whosoever...will not perish. Your way of interpreting this verse leaves NO verb in the sentence structure..."whosoever believes"..."will not perish". The text makes no sense with this approach.
     
    #12 webdog, Apr 20, 2006
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Dave beat me to the punch! Good analogy! [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]...except the analogy is totally different than the one I gave.
     
    #13 webdog, Apr 20, 2006
  14. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    It does not mean whoever has the will to. "Whosoever believes" is not the noun, "whosoever" is. "Believes" is the verb. Whosoever...will not perish. Your way of interpreting this verse leaves NO verb in the sentence structure..."whosoever believes"..."will not perish". The text makes no sense with this approach. </font>[/QUOTE]Nope, "is not condemned" is the verb phrase. The word "believes" modifies "whosoever".

    Besides, can anyone believe without exercising his will?
     
    #14 whatever, Apr 20, 2006
  15. Sularis

    Sularis Member

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    Oh goody Romans - someone posted Romans

    to answer the charges

    "For all both Jew and Greek are under sin" - yep thats right all are under sin" - Good verse - first reading would make someone possibly think you are right ;) but uh uh - thats jumping a little too quickly.

    I parry with Romans 8:3
    and thrust with Romans 7:23

    you have Bibles read em

    "No one is righteous" - yep that's right that wonderful sin nature makes us sin pretty much straight away - and thus no one is righteous.

    Also on another bunny trail of thought - there is a school of thought that righteousness is a positive force - and that due to our corrupted nature while we cannot achieve righteousness we can avoid evil.

    I believe in the age of accountability or innocence although this is by far the weakest part of my beliefs.

    "for by one man sin came into the world."

    Yep thats right - one man basically singlehandedly introduced the concept of sin and made us his descendants like it. He however didnt make us sinners. but also look at Romans 5:13 - interesting?

    "death spread to all men because all sinned"

    Everyone sins - thus everyone dies - I dont argue this - you have to come up with a verse that links Adam sins - you die - not just Adam sins - you get the opportunity to die and since you are guaranteed to screw up - you die

    Yes that probably was a slam against Calvinism now that I think about it - I have such a great revulsion for elitism and injustice - and before you go on with the rebelling against God and calling my salvation, faith or knowledge into question let's move on

    "where that good will originates from - does it originate from ourselves or from God?"

    First may I state your question/statement is horribly worded and as such - I was tempted to ignore it.

    In regards to the topic under discussion - man
    however ultimately all things originate from God

    I hear the screams and wretching - hope your keyboards clean up well - Now I will explain

    Simple explanation

    Ability - God
    use of ability - man


    Longer and probably waste of time explanation

    Man while incapable of saving himself is capable of avoiding evil - this does not and cannot save him. save he avoid EVERY SIN for his ENTIRE life. This isnt gong to happen as only one man ever did it and He was God. God then comes into the equation through the UNIVERSAL and regenerative CALL - granting man in His presence the ability to choose to accept Him. That is all God will allow - God will not allow unsaved man even in the regenerative effects of His call to do good. God sovereignly cuts that off.

    So the will to choose salvation comes from man - but must be enabled and permitted by God.

    "Whosever wills - Whosever wills may come" reminds me of that Sunday School song - ok hymn - my Sunday School sang a lot of songs - Man cannot will to come until he has been called - and he cannot be called save by the Spirit through either our words or whatever method He so desires.

    I finish up with Romans 10:14

    How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


    Well I hope Ive at least touched on everyone's points
     
    #15 Sularis, Apr 21, 2006
  16. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Also interesting sidenote - Most people are willing to allow everyone access and free helpings of Adam's sin - but to let them have access to Christ - God forbid! That's only for the special people not the rest of less special people.

    Yes that has come up before. It is confusing. Wonder what calvisnst will say. It wasn't replied to last time it came up.

    Great post above but I could give you the calvinist answer to those pts.
     
    #16 Timtoolman, Apr 21, 2006
  17. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Sularis,

    Just dealing with our disagreement on sin and sin nature, you keep using phrases like our sin nature means that we are "pretty much guaranteed to sin" or that our sin is pretty much inevitable. I guess my problem is that I don't see any Scriptural support for that. You appear to hold that we only become sinners when we first commit a sin. I believe the Scriptures teach that we sin because we are sinners by nature.

    And I'm not sure why you railed against me for questioning your salvation or faith - I've done nothing of the sort.

    And your claim against "elitism" is not right either. Like I've said previously, I am willing to share the Gospel to anyone without bias. Maybe what you are railing against is a form Hyper-Calvinism, which I would rail against, too.
     
    #17 Andy T., Apr 21, 2006
  18. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    I'll explain it once again. You (Tim, Sularis, Webdog, etc.) and I (me and other Calvinists - not Hyper-) both agree on these four things:

    1.) Those who believe on Christ are saved.
    2.) Those who do not believe on Christ are not saved.
    3.) Whoever is willing to believe on Christ will be saved.
    4.) The Gospel is to be preached to all people without bias.

    Yes, everyone has access to Christ. I agree with that. But "everyone" is also modified to everyone who will believe. You agree that only those who believe are saved, right? Where we differ is how or why a person "wills" to believe. And that discussion is probably best to be done on a new thread in the Theology section. But what I am trying to dispel on this thread is the notion that Calvinists are elitists or that they don't believe in sharing the Gospel with all people, etc. What you guys are arguing against is a form of Hyper-Calvinism. So I plead for you to stop attacking unfairly.
     
    #18 Andy T., Apr 21, 2006
  19. Sularis

    Sularis Member

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    Ahhh ok lets try again

    Every man has sin nature from the instant they are conceived or born or whatever - sin nature pretty much 99.999999999999999...% percent guarantees that you will sin. However you are NOT a sinner until such time as you actually COMMIT A SIN.

    So yes we sin because of nature - Romans 7:25 - but we are not sinners until we sin!

    Thus in my world-view I am not going to Hell until I screw up on my own - which I will and have anyways thanx to Adam being **proactive**.

    As to the railing being pro-active - pre-emptive strike thing....

    **Edited to remove slang**

    [ April 23, 2006, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
     
    #19 Sularis, Apr 21, 2006
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    It does not mean whoever has the will to. "Whosoever believes" is not the noun, "whosoever" is. "Believes" is the verb. Whosoever...will not perish. Your way of interpreting this verse leaves NO verb in the sentence structure..."whosoever believes"..."will not perish". The text makes no sense with this approach. </font>[/QUOTE]Nope, "is not condemned" is the verb phrase. The word "believes" modifies "whosoever".

    Besides, can anyone believe without exercising his will?     </font>[/QUOTE]Funny..."is not condemned" is found nowhere in verse 16...
    John 3:16 "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

    With all due respect, you can't pull a verb from the following sentences two verses later to support the previous sentence.
     
    #20 webdog, Apr 21, 2006
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