Historical lineage of Israel

[Stratiotes]

OK...as they say about fools rushing in, here I go again despite the rather nasty exchange in the other thread....a mixed history/theology question...

In AD70 during the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, all the temple records were burned - which included the birth records used to prove one's lineage from Abraham. Without those pedigrees, how can anyone claim that lineage?

Was it not God's way of reminding the world that it is not about a physical pedigree that God is concerned but about the "true" children of Israel - i.e., believers? If God were truly trying to preserve the children of Abraham as the apple of his eye then would he not have protected the reocrds that could prove that lineage? That's not a anti-semitic question by the way, its a legal question. How can you prove your ancestry short of DNA testing without some sort of birth records to back up your claims? Legally, one cannot be considered of a particular pedigree without the papers to back it up.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

During the tribulation, will it be important that the 144,000 sealed Jews prove their lineage ?

Hitler was not concerned that the people he tried to destroy could not prove a lineage.

I'm really not sure what to make of your post, but my belief is that the modern Jews are still God's chosen, and Israel is the Israel of Daniel and Ezekiel.

 

[LadyEagle]

Amen.

God has never lost track of the lineage.

 

[LadyEagle]

I tread here softly knowing ahead of time this thread will be hijacked by the usual suspects with the usual retorts about "figurative" etc. (I could name them, but they will soon reveal themselves, no doubt.) It would be nice to have an intelligent, mature, adult discussion about this, but we shall see how fast this thread deteriorates.

If God were truly trying to preserve the children of Abraham as the apple of his eye then would he not have protected the reocrds that could prove that lineage? That's not a anti-semitic question by the way, its a legal question.

Records were destroyed in AD70, but don't forget the Nation of Israel was dispersed long before AD70. Paul preached to the Jews at Rome. Paul, himself, was a Benjaminite (light bearer).

Scientists and archeologists have not uncovered all there is to know or find. Could it be possible that duplicate records may yet be found? It is not beyond the realm of possibility, when one considers the more recent discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. A lot of archeological digs have had to be postponed or abandoned in the region because of the Palestinian conflict. At any rate, God knows who the 12,000 x 12 (144,000) are and I have no doubt (since they are sealed), He will keep track of them.

How can you prove your ancestry short of DNA testing without some sort of birth records to back up your claims?

Actually some work with DNA has been going on in recent years. Here's one link of many on the Internet regarding the DNA studies:

DNA Chain

Legally, one cannot be considered of a particular pedigree without the papers to back it up.

As Brother Curtis stated, Hitler had no problem identifying the Jews.

At any rate, not all the prophecies concerning the Nation of Israel have yet been fulfilled, even though, there are some on this board who say otherwise - the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation is just one example. God is not finished with the Nation of Israel. They are being regathered back to their Nation as in the parable of the fig tree. Ezekiel 38 and 39 are yet to be fulfilled, as well.

 

[Stratiotes]

No "evil" intent was meant in my post, just honest questions, so I appreciate your honest attempts to respond. I'm not sure what Hitler has to do with the answer to any of the questions other than that law of discussion boards that every discussion has to progress to an innevitable Hitler analogy. I just didn't expect this one to get to that analogy so quickly

 

[Stratiotes]

Sorry for the multiple posts, I just remembered the name of that discussion board law to which I alluded in my previous post and it was too late to edit:

Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

 

[LadyEagle]

The Hitler thing - How did Hitler know Jews were Jews?? - if they had no papers to prove their lineage - was the point I was making. Today, how do we know someone is a Jew (if no papers to prove lineage)??? A person can be of Jewish lineage but not be practicing Judaism as their religion.

 

[rsr]

There were abundant records, both civil and from the Jewish communities themselves. Not always reliable, perhaps (there is still the nagging question of Hitler's ancestry, which was perhaps not reflected in the official records), but enough to work with.

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by rsr:
There were abundant records, both civil and from the Jewish communities themselves. Not always reliable, perhaps (there is still the nagging question of Hitler's ancestry, which was perhaps not reflected in the official records), but enough to work with.

Okay, fine. So, then why is records being destroyed in AD70 an issue with some people? Seems like a disconnect to me.

 

[rsr]

Not an issue with me. The Jews knew who they were, and so did the Gentiles. They were ghettoized in Poland and Russia, expelled from Spain, prohibited from living in England at some points.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Where did you come up with the concept that ALL records of Judaism were destroyed in 70CE? That is simply not true.

Just like our courthouse could burn, but their are records, bibles, church baptismals, etc that can be used to piece together lineage. My Jewish ancestors came from Bohemia (Eastern Europe) and had no trouble with records.

 

[LadyEagle]

I think it comes from the "replacement theology" mindset, Dr. Bob. Some of the websites I checked which advocate replacement theology (the Church replaces Israel in God's plan and thus Israel is no longer the "apple of God's eye" and has no right to claim anything, in particular the land), seem to advocate that all the records were destroyed and therefore, Jews no longer can have a legal claim to the land in Israel, God is finished with Israel, blah, blah. (which, as you already know, I do not believe)

 

[Stratiotes]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Where did you come up with the concept that ALL records of Judaism were destroyed in 70CE? That is simply not true.

Dr. Bob, I will concede that you are probably more knowledgable on this subject than I but I am just speaking from history I've read over the years that brought me to this conclusion. I haven't seen anything that would indicate any of the records survived. Even the Judaism did not survive in its previous form and had to adapt to the loss of the temple. But, I would be interested to hear where you have found evidence that any records survived the war.

I've always been curious too that if the church did not gain all the promises of Israel then why would we bother regarding any of the OT? What purpose could it possibly have for us? I know, it isn't an historical question but related some to the other.

I'm trying avoid responding to the Hitler analogies but I simply have to point out that Hitler may have thought he knew who the Jews were - but nobody knows who the true Jews are except God (which is, by the way, my point). Hitler may have thought he was omniscient but I can assure you he was not - therefore, I'm still at a loss for what he has to do with this thread

 

[Gershom]

God's promise was made to all of Israel, not just to the tribe of Judah (Jews). And as LadyEagle pointed out, Israel was disseminated long before the destruction of the temple.

I suppose it's a possiblity that there may be some Israelites living today who can trace their lineage back a good way.

 

[LadyEagle]

I'm trying avoid responding to the Hitler analogies but I simply have to point out that Hitler may have thought he knew who the Jews were - but nobody knows who the true Jews are except God (which is, by the way, my point).

Dr. Bob, are you listening? Do you have "proof" you are from Jewish ancestry?

Strat, do you realize what you are saying? How bright would a person be to claim being a Jew when claiming to be a Jew could get you slaughtered throughout history? C'mon, now. Surely you jest.

Strat, when do you suppose all Jews (Judah) and Israelites (from the other tribes) were annihilated from the face of the earth and no longer exist?

Is it your supposition that all who claim to be Jews are really imposters (as is cited on some anti-Semitic web sites) and therefore have no claim to the Land or the Abrahamic and Davidic promises of the OT?

 

[Gershom]

I think he's trying to build a case for his belief that God is finished with Israel, and that the church has replaced Israel. For example, his argument of lineage and his wondering where the OT has a place in Christianity if the church hasn't replaced Israel. It is, however, in vain.

 

[Stratiotes]

I'm not saying there are no more Jews. I'm saying there is going to be some difficulty in identifying who they are without the pedigrees. There are a lot of golden retrievers who don't have pedigrees either and that does not make them less golden retrievers, it just makes it impossible to prove they are golden retrievers. The pedigree is the *legal* proof, not the thing that makes it so.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by Stratiotes:
I've always been curious too that if the church did not gain all the promises of Israel then why would we bother regarding any of the OT? What purpose could it possibly have for us? I know, it isn't an historical question but related some to the other.

God made promises to PHYSICAL Israel, a Jewish tribal nation. Very clear and distinct (like Messiah coming, throne of David, rule in Jerusalem and 10,000 more.

He likewise made promises to SPIRITUAL Israel, believers by faith, and people like us. Very DIFFERENT promises that must be kept distinct.

WHY then does most of the OT relate to the PHYSICAL Israel and have nothing for us? Well, that is not true. Paul reminds us from a story in the OT

Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.

Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

The majority of the OT, though dealing with the PHYSICAL promises to the Jews and NOT to the church, are "illustrations" and "teaching points" so we can learn principles of God and life.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Hitler had little problem identifying who was a Jew or not, even though such identification would kill them. Now, identification as to tribe? I wouldn't have a clue and wouldn't think many could tell.

(Obviously some have tribal-related names like Cohen or Gershon, both of Levi. But that may be anglicized or simply modified.)

I think in Rev there will be DNA marking beyond what we can fathom. Perhaps the antichrist's pogroms against Jew and against Christian and his mark will be DNA related. This science grows exponentially every month; I can't imagine what next YEAR will bring. But can see it happening.

 

[Stratiotes]

Dr. Bob - where have you heard that some records survived AD70?

Here's the problem -

Let's say George Washington left a piece of land to his direct descendants to be owned with instructions that all indirect descendants (cousins, etc) will have the right to hunt on the land for eternity (or, more specifically, until Jesus returns). Now, I want to hunt on that land but to do so I have to have some evidence that I am truly a descendant of the father of our country. Without that proof, I cannot legally make any claims on the use of the land. I may look just like all the rest of the family and it may even be common knowledge that I am descended but I have no *legal* proof of that pedigree so for all legal purposes, I cannot make the claim. You might respond that God does not care about legality - but you would be mistaken - the purpose of the cross was just that...an act that allowed us who were not the physical descendants of Abraham to be grafted into the his family tree. Our pedigree is thru our older brother who purchased our legal adoption as sons. If we had to go with our physical lineage then we would need documentation to prove that lineage. To say legality does not matter is to dismiss the need for the cross.