Hold-up victim kills attacker

[Don]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/21/BAI4161N0D.DTL

A 23-year-old visitor from the East Coast had just gotten money from an ATM when he told his friend on a cell phone that he had a bad feeling about two men approaching him at the Fruitvale BART Station in Oakland.
His worst fears were realized when one suspect, Victor Veliz, 18, held a folding knife with a 5-inch blade to his neck and the other, Christopher Gonzalez, 18, threatened to shoot him Thursday night, authorities said.
In a blind panic, he lashed out at his attackers, grabbing the knife from one of them and punching the other as his friend listened in horror on the phone.
Without realizing it, authorities say, the man stabbed Gonzalez in the chest. Gonzalez stumbled to his family's home around the corner, collapsed into his father's arms and died.
....
Javier Gonzalez sobbed at the loss of his son, who worked with him in his roofing business and at Oakland Raiders games.
"I'm angry at both of them," he said of the robbery victim and Veliz. "They took my son away from me. He was a hard-working kid."
He added, "My son is dead. I want somebody to pay for this."

Somebody explain this to me. Please. Seriously. I cannot wrap my head around this father's comments. Perhaps he's merely caught up in his grief about his son, but to blame the guy his son attacked?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/21/BAI4161N0D.DTL



Somebody explain this to me. Please. Seriously. I cannot wrap my head around this father's comments. Perhaps he's merely caught up in his grief about his son, but to blame the guy his son attacked?

Sad that his son died, but when you threaten the lives of others, you put yourself at risk. I think this is a case of sowing and reaping.

 

[matt wade]

The dad said "My son is dead. I want somebody to pay for this."

Someone did pay, his son. His son was at fault and responsible for what happened and his son paid the price.

 

[SBCPreacher]

I have had to council folks whose kids have gotten into real trouble - violent crimes, drugs, etc. Many of them say the same thing: "But he's a good boy." For some reason they can't see the reality of the situation - he's NOT a good boy. He's a criminal.

That sounds like the case here.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I have had to council folks whose kids have gotten into real trouble - violent crimes, drugs, etc. Many of them say the same thing: "But he's a good boy." For some reason they can't see the reality of the situation - he's NOT a good boy. He's a criminal.

That sounds like the case here.

Just gotta quote Merle Haggard here!

The first thing I remember knowing,
Was a lonesome whistle blowing,
And a young un's dream of growing up to ride;
On a freight train leaving town,
Not knowing where I'm bound,
No-one could change my mind but Mama tried.

One and only rebel child,
From a family, meek and mild:
My Mama seemed to know what lay in store.
Despite all my Sunday learning,
Towards the bad, I kept on turning.
'Til Mama couldn't hold me anymore.

And I turned twenty-one in prison doing life without parole.
No-one could steer me right but Mama tried, Mama tried.
Mama tried to raise me better, but her pleading, I denied.
That leaves only me to blame 'cos Mama tried.

Dear old Daddy, rest his soul,
Left my Mom a heavy load;
She tried so very hard to fill his shoes.
Working hours without rest,
Wanted me to have the best.
She tried to raise me right but I refused.

And I turned twenty-one in prison doing life without parole.
No-one could steer me right but Mama tried, Mama tried.
Mama tried to raise me better, but her pleading, I denied.
That leaves only me to blame 'cos Mama tried.

 

[thomas not doubting]

I have had to council folks whose kids have gotten into real trouble - violent crimes, drugs, etc. Many of them say the same thing: "But he's a good boy." For some reason they can't see the reality of the situation - he's NOT a good boy. He's a criminal.

That reminds me of a TV program I saw once, about youth that had been in trouble with the law and were now in a 'boot camp' type correctional facility. One of the officers asked one of the kids why he was there and the kid said "I was hanging around with a bad crowd". The officer replied "You weren't hanging around with a bad crowd, you WERE the bad crowd".

 

[just-want-peace]

Sad that his son died, but when you threaten the lives of others, you put yourself at risk. I think this is a case of sowing and reaping.

WOW! The rapture is coming NLT day after tomorrow! How do I know???

(DRUM ROLL---------------------------------)

I AGREE 100% (probably first time :laugh::love2: ) WITH MP

 

[Magnetic Poles]

WOW! The rapture is coming NLT day after tomorrow! How do I know???

(DRUM ROLL---------------------------------)

I AGREE 100% (probably first time :laugh::love2: ) WITH MP

JWP, it is indeed an historic day!

God's blessing upon you, brother.

 

[JFox1]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/21/BAI4161N0D.DTL



Somebody explain this to me. Please. Seriously. I cannot wrap my head around this father's comments. Perhaps he's merely caught up in his grief about his son, but to blame the guy his son attacked?

That guy's father is not looking at reality. His son wasn't a "hard working boy." He was a violent criminal.

 

[Steven2006]

I can overlook the clouding of judgment the father is displaying here, pain of this magnitude will do that to people. In the article is states that his son's friend was affiliated with a gang, it doesn't say that his son was. So while it doesn't excuse the son of being responsible of his actions and he most certainly paid the price, it could very well be that his boy was a hard working boy. One that was tempted to follow along with the wrong person, and found himself in a situation he normally hadn't perviously participated in, we just don't know. What we do know is this man is grieving and not thinking clearly. I am sure that somewhere down deep he knows his son was not only wrong but responsible. He probably is questioning himself right now as to if he had done everything in order to make sure that his son didn't go down that path. I am sure the more the truth sets in the more pain he will feel. I am going to try and keep this man in my prayers for a while. I hope if he isn't saved, somehow through this tragedy the Lord will reveal Himself to him.

 

[Matt Black]

The kid got what was coming to him; if you live by the sword you will die by it (remind me, Who said that?). That said, I do feel sorry for the father , despite his demand that 'someone pays' (product of a litigious society - I blame us lawyers for that!) - however you slice and dice it, he's lost his son and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

 

[pinoybaptist]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/21/BAI4161N0D.DTL



Somebody explain this to me. Please. Seriously. I cannot wrap my head around this father's comments. Perhaps he's merely caught up in his grief about his son, but to blame the guy his son attacked?

Somebody should pay. But definitely not the guy who defended himself. I'd go after the gang. It seems like the man's son was trying to get into the gang by its "blood in" principle.

But wait, there's more.

Higher up (or lower down) the gang is the social system that could be causing the existence of the gangs.

No, no. I think it's hollywood. They started this whole gang thing. You know, the James Dean saga, the Marlon Brando motorcycle "tough" guys fad, the "troubled kid" predicament.

Or is it America herself that should be blamed ? You know, the "freedom of speech" thing that allows for a "marketplace of ideas" that brought the elephant named "Evolution" into the classroom, and the "freedoms of choice and all that jazz" that created the Castro district over in San Francisco, and the "rights" of Cable and all those channels of the prince of the power of the air that he uses to bring in stories about teenage runaways in San Diego and Hollywood who ran away from home because they were victims of sexual abuse or physical abuse and everybody else but them being evil although some were honest enough to say they ran away from home so they can "shoot up, man", you know, do my own thing, you know what I mean ?

Ah, heck.

Who's to blame, eh ?

I say........it's the serpent. He made Eve sin, then Eve made Adam sin, then God kicked the couple out of Eden, and now we have this sorry mess, and what can we say, eh ?

I guess I'll just go along with that guy called Paul.

"I thank God through Jesus Christ..................."

 

[Don]

I guess what I need explained is not so much the father's wanting to blame someone ... it's the father's mentality of blaming the victim of the crime.

 

[Steven2006]

I guess what I need explained is not so much the father's wanting to blame someone ... it's the father's mentality of blaming the victim of the crime.

IMO, I would say the grief and pain he is feeling is clouding his judgment.

 

[Jon-Marc]

"He was a hard working kid." Yeah, he worked hard at stealing from other hard working people who had earned their money the correct way--by actually WORKING for it.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Unfortunately, everyone is usually blamed for a criminal's actions EXCEPT the criminal. As much as I hate to admit it, I have a nephew who went to prison for child molestation for 4 years. When he got out, he told me that one year would have been enough, and he felt that four years was way too much. I didn't bother telling him that I thought that four years for what he did wasn't anywhere near enough. He didn't think the crime warranted the punishment, and I didn't think the punishment fit the crime; it should have been a lot longer.

 

[windcatcher]

Wow! With all this condemnation has anyone bothered to think that maybe....... just maybe the statement 'he was a hard working kid!' is true.... from the dad's knowledge of his son when on the job working roof and from the dad's lack of knowledge with the extraciricular activities regarding his son's behavior and his son's friends?

It's unfortunate that sensational news reports and quotes hasty statements like this! It does nothing for the grieving, nothing for the victim of the crime, stirs up additional polarization and division, and, in some instances, inflames purilent motivations in some!

One of the early stages of grief is denial and bargaining: The loss or death has already occurred..... but in the shock of receiving this information intellectually, the emotional self attempts to prevent the pain of recognition by delaying with its own ways of avoidance the realization and acceptance of that pain and grief: Most people by the time they have finished high-school or college and become journalists, have had some exposure to basic psychology, yet they either show their ignorance in making no practical application...... or almost deliberately use it to feed the voyeristic interest of the public and to perpetuate by repeating false premises which add to the unbalanced or criminal motivations and thinking of others!

 

[windcatcher]

Many parents over identify with their kids ........ sadly, without really knowing them! I'm not saying that it happened like this in this case.... but parents are here to nuture development and growth, and guide their children into values which will help them in their future and adult decisions, and discipline them with consequences which have meaning and redirects their behavior when children and youth make bad decisions. It is a day to day continuous process of parenting which cannot take a vacation and then suddenly return with the expectation of correcting what was missed by an quickie effort.

But this young man who was killed, regardless of whether his gifts and value was recognized by his family, regardless of whether he was loved, taught, disciplined or abused..... makes his own decisions and becomes responsible for them with no one else to blame. His dad may not be able to see this for a while as long as he's in the first stages of his grief.... and without being able to look in the mirror of his own heart... or the help of someone he trusts to share and reflect that image to him, could get stuck in a fomenting stage of bitterness and anger.

I don't know if this applies here or not:
But I think what helps me ........when I do 'it'....... is holding up the mirror of God's own word as the standard against my own life: I'm ever humbled when I see my poor reflection so sorry and ugly in the light of his holiness: I see myself as filthy and helpless, unable to change and am drawn to the cross where he became my sacrifice and cleansed me with his own precious blood: I then find he arose and gives me promise and hope that one day he will raise me up when the imperfections of my body, mind, and spirit will be repaired and my will and pleasure will be totally one in agreement with his and my reward will be to glorify him eternally. The more he shows me of my own imperfections, the less I am inclined to gaze prolonged and judgementally upon the weaknesses in others..... and the more compassion I feel for the need of the Savior which they too have.... whether they know it or not. It is there that I realize that it makes little difference to them what I may think of them...... but what God thinks of them means everything .......and only he has the power to draw them to him and to change them.

Overidentification with others is not good:
We either tend to excuse them.... and ourselves.....or condemn them... and, in doing so, we condemn ourselves.

Parents, to really be of help to their children, have to realize that the umbilical cord was cut at birth and no matter how well they parent their children..... each child is different and individual and just like all other individuals, there will be things in that persons' life (be it places, or thoughts, or behavior, etc.) which is a unique part of that individual's experience or expressed from within his heart which they cannot know. To refuse to accept that another person can do bad things is like denying that we ourselves are sinners once..... before he raised us to be saints. Just as its impossible to turn a car without a steering wheel, some parents falsely believe their children can do no wrong because the parents are unfamiliar with the twisting of the roads in their own lives and deny that the wheel may need a corrective turn, which requires their own vision, when the children are young and still capable of being steered.

A boy of 18 is still a boy and his father's son.... but he is also a man and responsible for his own decisions and not those of his father!

Sounds like the father is acknowledgeing some anger over the accomplice. I think this is reasonable: I feel compassion for the victim of the crime and also for this grieving parent: If we agree to commit them all to God in prayer.... believing that in God's plan there are no coincidences...... perhaps God will use this for some good, either in their lives or in the lives of others.

 

[Predestined]

Loosing a child is probably the most intense pain a parent can suffer. I lost my only biological child to murder last year and can tell you from first hand experience that the father of the deceased is experiencing a type of grief beyond anything he has ever known. Hopefully the reality of this situation will set in one day for the father…it will be quite sometime I'm sure.