Eternally Grateful
Active Member
wanted to continue my conversation with @Ben1445 concerning the English vs the Greek.
@Ben1445 made this comment I would like to respond to. and look deeper into. to try to show what I am trying to show
Ben said - That is the problem of people not knowing their own language. It doesn’t mean that the perfect tense doesn’t exist.
If I say “I had eaten,” it means in the past I ate but it leaves opportunity for me to be hungry.
“Are you hungry?” “I had eaten, but I am hungry again.”
My response. this would be in the greek a past tense. or Aorist tense word. Not perfect. That is what seperates a greek from english. the fact you may be hungry now shows that although you ate (in the past) it it does not show whether the action still persists today.
If I answer “I have eaten,” I would not expect to be fed. The present perfect tense shows that what was done in the past is relative to the present.
“I will have eaten,” shows the future perfect.
These convey clearly different meanings than the statements made without the perfect tense.
I ate.
I eat.
I will eat.
Again it is different.
In the greek. we know from the word that what happened in the past. is still in process today. we would not have to ask if you are hungry now because I would already know.
lets look at the example I gave in eph 2; "have been saved"
In context of what we are discussing, I wanted to make sure we are discussing the same context. ie. I am not talking about perfect tense phrases. but words (remember the KJV is a word for word translation. meaning they try their best to pick a word in English that properly translated the word originally written in the Greek
The example I used was in eph 2, the word being saved.
in my English classes. I was always taught there are three tenses
I have been saved (past tense)
I am being saved (present tense)
And I will be saved (future tense).
focusing on the past tense. There is nothing in text which would show the reader we continue to be saved today. it is open for interpretation.
In the greek. this would be a past or aorist word.
I have been saved..
The perfect tense in the Greek is more of a present perfect or a past act with continuing results.
sadly. in the english, we would interpret it the same way. I have been saved.
however, it still leaves open the unanswered question. am I still saved today? will I still be saved tomorrow?
In the greek, this is answered in the word used.
If it is just past tense or aorist simple.. we are unsure or can not know the present state
if it is however. in the perfect tense, we know He not only was saved (a completed action) but his salvation continues
as you see. a word for word translation leaves us with issues. In order to accurately interpret the perfect tense word "saved - Sozo" we would have to ADD or expand the translation. so the reader knows.
a few examples would be...
ie. I have been saved, and this salvation is continuing
Or I have been saved. and this salvation will continue
Or I have been saved and this salvation is complete to the point I will never need saved again.
as you can see. we now get into much debate on how we should interpret this expanded phrase.
for those of us who have sat through a teaching or study with a person who really gets into the original languages, you probably have seen this where the pastor-teacher (thats what mine called himself) would give an updated or more accurate translation of what is said.
I have the Wuest word studies in the Greek new testament, in this series he actually has his own expanded translation. This is how he interprets eph 2: 8
by grace have you been saved completely in past time, with the present result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time (Ephesians 2:8, WUESTNT)
The words in bold had to be added to properly display the perfect tense of the verb SOZO (be saved or rescued) as the words "have been saved" alone could not completely or properly interpret the text
the problem is, people would scream because it is not a word for word interpretation. (I have been in these arguments)
which is why I have said and always maintained. any english word for word text is flawed, because of the weakness of the greek language
@Ben1445 made this comment I would like to respond to. and look deeper into. to try to show what I am trying to show
Ben said - That is the problem of people not knowing their own language. It doesn’t mean that the perfect tense doesn’t exist.
If I say “I had eaten,” it means in the past I ate but it leaves opportunity for me to be hungry.
“Are you hungry?” “I had eaten, but I am hungry again.”
My response. this would be in the greek a past tense. or Aorist tense word. Not perfect. That is what seperates a greek from english. the fact you may be hungry now shows that although you ate (in the past) it it does not show whether the action still persists today.
If I answer “I have eaten,” I would not expect to be fed. The present perfect tense shows that what was done in the past is relative to the present.
“I will have eaten,” shows the future perfect.
These convey clearly different meanings than the statements made without the perfect tense.
I ate.
I eat.
I will eat.
Again it is different.
In the greek. we know from the word that what happened in the past. is still in process today. we would not have to ask if you are hungry now because I would already know.
lets look at the example I gave in eph 2; "have been saved"
In context of what we are discussing, I wanted to make sure we are discussing the same context. ie. I am not talking about perfect tense phrases. but words (remember the KJV is a word for word translation. meaning they try their best to pick a word in English that properly translated the word originally written in the Greek
The example I used was in eph 2, the word being saved.
in my English classes. I was always taught there are three tenses
I have been saved (past tense)
I am being saved (present tense)
And I will be saved (future tense).
focusing on the past tense. There is nothing in text which would show the reader we continue to be saved today. it is open for interpretation.
In the greek. this would be a past or aorist word.
I have been saved..
The perfect tense in the Greek is more of a present perfect or a past act with continuing results.
sadly. in the english, we would interpret it the same way. I have been saved.
however, it still leaves open the unanswered question. am I still saved today? will I still be saved tomorrow?
In the greek, this is answered in the word used.
If it is just past tense or aorist simple.. we are unsure or can not know the present state
if it is however. in the perfect tense, we know He not only was saved (a completed action) but his salvation continues
as you see. a word for word translation leaves us with issues. In order to accurately interpret the perfect tense word "saved - Sozo" we would have to ADD or expand the translation. so the reader knows.
a few examples would be...
ie. I have been saved, and this salvation is continuing
Or I have been saved. and this salvation will continue
Or I have been saved and this salvation is complete to the point I will never need saved again.
as you can see. we now get into much debate on how we should interpret this expanded phrase.
for those of us who have sat through a teaching or study with a person who really gets into the original languages, you probably have seen this where the pastor-teacher (thats what mine called himself) would give an updated or more accurate translation of what is said.
I have the Wuest word studies in the Greek new testament, in this series he actually has his own expanded translation. This is how he interprets eph 2: 8
by grace have you been saved completely in past time, with the present result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time (Ephesians 2:8, WUESTNT)
The words in bold had to be added to properly display the perfect tense of the verb SOZO (be saved or rescued) as the words "have been saved" alone could not completely or properly interpret the text
the problem is, people would scream because it is not a word for word interpretation. (I have been in these arguments)
which is why I have said and always maintained. any english word for word text is flawed, because of the weakness of the greek language