Holt ministry celebrates its love of God - and beer

Let the condemnation flow!!!

 

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; And whosoever erreth thereby is not wise

Neither Pastors nor churches are perfect. Taking up those things that scripture speaks so clearly against is far from above reproach. This dabbling with alcohol is the equivilent to a man and woman who are married to other people going out to lunch or dinner or just meeting in the park. The justification is that they are just two people innocently meeting as friends. The real danger is that it goes much farther than that. Such behavior is not appropriate regardless of the supposed intentions. The potential is that many lives will be put into turmoil. Most would agree that such a risk is unnecesary and could be perceived to be more than it is. Thus failing to be above reproach.

Alcohol is no different. Alcohol destroys the lives of many people. The potential for destruction is the same as supposed innocent liasons between men and women. And it fails to meet the requirrements to be above reproach. The drunks in the bars can look to churches who take part in this failed behavior and say "the church does it so I am ok". This brings the church into a reproach. Its testimony is no better than those in the bars.

To futher exacerbate this sinnful behavior it has become a tool to "evangelize" by drawing a crowd through alcohol. Christ commanded us to go out and be a testimony of His death, burial, and resurrection. He did not command us to go out and pass out a six pack. We need to win them with the gospel. And in truth such a statement can be misleading. For it is not us who actually does the "winning". Only the Holy Ghost can reach into man's heart. And the gospel is the means by which He does that.

Drawing crowds by way of worldly and secular means does just that. It draws a crowd. But the crowd is looking to come to God by their own way. The rich young ruler made an attempt to do that. Christ would not except his terms. The only acceptable means of reaching out to a lost and dying world is by way of the Word of God. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17

"God help us to know the difference between a crowd and a church" Dr. David Allen

 

Several points.

First of all, alcohol threads need to cease. It has been battered to death, and has become a mockery.

The idea of using alcohol in a church is trying to mix the world with God. It does not work. The same principle holds (although to a different degree) by spending untold amounts of money on elaborate entertainment centers and recreation gimics to attract people to a church, instead of using the money for missions, or to help the poor.

Finally, and I don't think this point will ever get through some thick heads, abstinence from alcohol is a result of a Spirit lead life, putting trust in Him to lead you each day and make you more like Jesus. In my life, that has lead to abstinence.

As shown above, that is directly opposed to memorizing rules based on one's opinion of Scripture, and abstaining based on their own will. That is what the Pharisees did. Neither you, nor I, have the right to dictate to another brother or sister in Christ how the Spirit should have lead them just because it disagrees with you.

 

You would have real problems with wine being used as an OT sacrifice, then. How dare we deem "worldly" what God does not!

I bet those who rail against this man and his church have no problems with coffee in their churches! Can we say "hypocrite"?

...and in my life, it has lead AWAY from it.

 

Maybe I've just been out of touch lately, but since when did coffee and alcohol become comprable?

 

When people began trying to justify their desire for that which God forbids.

 

They are not unless you need to reach to make a point that is invalid.

 

A Christian is permitted to drink alcoholic beverages in moderation.

 

You totally missed my point.

 

Scripture please?

 

Christ Jesus having turned water into an alcoholic beverage - wine - should be sufficient proof for any Christian.

 

The Bible does not say that wine in John 2 was alcoholic.

You are grasping, KenH.

 

A Prophet, I presume.

But I have noticed there is a 'roundup' of "the usual suspects" in progress, apparently.

If we can find and encourage Martin Luther to join in, maybe he will baptize all of us in beer.

Ed

 

It is really not a good idea to call someone a hypocrite. This is an exchange of ideas. Not agreeing does not define hypocrite.

It being against the policy of this board, I wouldn't do it again.

Have a nice weekend.

 

I am not an advocate of the use of alcohol as a beverage. As medicinal use yes. As a replacement for non potable water maybe.

One thing we have to remember about the European culture of alcohol consumption, in the Church and in the world, is The Plague. To drink the water would have been certain death but to brew beer and store wine which you could keep for a period of time without spoiling was in reality a godsend. Beer brewing saved many lives in those days and the storing of fruit juices was increased by allowing it to ferment. Lives were saved and for generations they freely drank beer & wine, adult and child alike. Until they realized that they had to clean up their act of the disposal of human waist into the streets and into the rivers. It is ironic that France was the first to build sewer systems (sense ancient Rome) that cleaned up their cities and the people became more healthy very fast.

The European culture of alcohol drinking continues to this day.

European settlers that came to the New World did not change their ways either. Even though the water here was pristine, and as cities grew they avoided the sewage runoff that plagued their European brethren. However the use of alcohol was quite common way into the 20th century. Alcoholic use bread violence in the cities and in the west as the people moved east to west.
Much like in Europe, the first settlers of the west did not always have a ready source of fresh water and brewing beer in the plains was a way to preserve a potable beverage.

As saloons and pubs throughout American became the hot spot of violence and the use of alcohol began to break up families and factories clamped down because of deadly accidents, alcohol intolerance began to spread.

Churches began to speak against its use as a beverage of convince. Governments began to clamp down on its use and laws against its brewing my private citizens made American culture ripe for the pickings of major gang activities. The citizenry was so hooked on alcohol that they would defy any law passed to suppress its production.

When an evil that is wreaking society is identified, the Church would be neglecting its duty if it did not preach against its use and distribution. Its use in the Church would be hypocritical if that Church has raised its voice against its use.

If a person that drinks beer or wine that attends a fellowship that is intolerant to its use, they then should seek a fellowship that does not see its use as an evil to society. Instead you have folks causing dissensions that the world looks at and says "If that is what Church life is like I will have no part in it."

I think that it just might be a good idea to have a church that has a micro brewery in its basement. It will soon run like an old west saloon. and instead of a Preacher of a Church in opposition having to preach to his congregation about the evils of alcohol, all a Preacher has to do is point to the church across the street and scold them for their sins. :smilewinkgrin:

Then just maybe the world will see a difference in a life that is set aside for Christ.

 

I will so far as to state that all the wine in the wedding was not alcoholic.

 

What is this assumption based upon?

The fact that the Pharisees accused Jesus of being a "wine-bibbler" convinces me that what Jesus and the disciples drank was, in fact, alcoholic. I don't think anyone could have gotten drunk on grape juice.

 

The fact that the wine that was miraculously made by Jesus and that it was introduced at the end of the feast after all the provided wine was consumed.

The Pharisees were always looking for a way to discredit our Lord and Savior. They accused him in association to embarrass Him before the multitudes that followed Him. The Pharisee did not know what He drank as they were too "righteous" to go in with Him while He was in the house of publicans and sinners.

 

It is you, my friend, who grasps at straws on this subject.