How did God “constitute” mankind after the fall?

[canadyjd]

There are some who claim that the reformed position that mankind, because of the fall, is unable to seek God for salvation (without His intervention) due to their fallen nature, makes God cruel and unjust for requiring something (faith) they are unable to give.

They also claim that such belief makes God responsible for man’s sin because he was so “constituted” by God after the fall that they would always act according to their sin nature and had no choice to do otherwise.

I want to show the folly of such belief.

God most certainly determined the consequences of the fall including how mankind was “constituted” afterward. I’ll address spiritual inability in a moment.

To believe that makes God responsible for mankind’s rebellion goes far beyond the issue of Spiritual inability to seek God for salvation. It literally makes God the author of all sin.

When Cain’s sacrifice was rejected and he killed Abel, such belief makes God responsible for Abel’s murder because God so “constituted” Cain’s nature that he would experienced envy, jealousy, anger and hatred... making him capable of murder.

Such belief makes God responsible for every reprehensible act ever committed because of the way God “constituted” mankind.

Scripture clearly lays the responsibility for sin with Adam’s rebellion. Does that mean God didn’t “constitute” the sin nature of mankind as a consequence of the fall? Of course not, as He clearly did.

So why did God choose such harsh consequences for the fall? The answer lies in God’s nature.

God always responds according to His nature. In the case of the fall, God’s Holiness, righteousness, justice must be considered as determining the consequences of the fall, including spiritual inability to seek God for salvation.

The good news is that God’s nature also consist of love, mercy and forgiveness. Instead of leaving mankind in such a helpless condition, God chooses to intervene in the lives of those He has chosen for mercy and bring them to salvation by the power of Holy Spirit and faith in Jesus.

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

There is NO sinner, who can in and of themselves EVER seek the Lord for their salvation. This is an impossibility! It is the Lord Who first has to begin the work, through the preaching of the Gospel Message, from which faith comes (Romans 10:13). Then the Holy Spirit "convicts" the sinner of their sins, and their need for The Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 16:7-9). the sinner when "convicted", can respond as those did after Peter preached the Gospel in Acts chapter 2, and ask, "what shall we DO?" (2:37), to which Peter responds, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost". They are then born-again and become children of the Living God!

 

[canadyjd]

There is NO sinner, who can in and of themselves EVER seek the Lord for their salvation. This is an impossibility! It is the Lord Who first has to begin the work, through the preaching of the Gospel Message, from which faith comes (Romans 10:13). Then the Holy Spirit "convicts" the sinner of their sins, and their need for The Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 16:7-9). the sinner when "convicted", can respond as those did after Peter preached the Gospel in Acts chapter 2, and ask, "what shall we DO?" (2:37), to which Peter responds, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost". They are then born-again and become children of the Living God!

This might be a first. I think I agree with everything you said.

I’ll have to re-read it several times to be sure, but meanwhile.....

peace to you

 

[SavedByGrace]

This might be a first. I think I agree with everything you said.

I’ll have to re-read it several times to be sure, but meanwhile.....

peace to you

HEY!!! we actually AGREE!!! Praise the Good Lord. There is hope after all!

 

[Van]

Calvinism makes God the author of sin, because God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass. But in the next sentence, Calvinism says God is not the author of sin. So OTOH, God predestines every sin, yet does not predestine every sin.
Behold the cognitive dissonance of Calvinism.
1) If a person is unable to seek God, they are sinning when not seeking God.
2) If a person is punished for not seeking God, they are punished because God made them unable to seek God.

Who would embrace this irrational and unbiblical twaddle?

 

[Dave G]

There are some who claim that the reformed position that mankind, because of the fall, is unable to seek God for salvation (without His intervention) due to their fallen nature, makes God cruel and unjust for requiring something (faith) they are unable to give.

I don't look at it as the "Reformed" position, but OK, if that's the way some people wish to categorize it, that is up to them.

As for men being unable to seek God, I wouldn't quite describe it that way...
It's very much a refusal to accept the truth of God's words;
Even in the face of death ( Romans 1:30-32 ).

So, God is just for allowing us as men to spiral into the trash can, and He is just for leaving us there if He so chooses to.

Finally, faith isn't a requirement that's needed to save someone.
Faith in His words is what pleases God.

Because the carnal mind is at enmity ( hostility, an enemy of ) with God, those that are "in the flesh" cannot please God.
Why? Because we refuse to believe His words in our corrupt condition.

They also claim that such belief makes God responsible for man’s sin because he was so “constituted” by God after the fall that they would always act according to their sin nature and had no choice to do otherwise.

God being charged with responsibility for leaving us to that which we love, if it weren't so tragic, would be laughable.
To me,
Wicked men accusing the God of all creation ( Whom we have offended with our rebellion and persistent love of sin ) with anything, is the height of arrogance.

 

[Dave G]

There is NO sinner, who can in and of themselves EVER seek the Lord for their salvation. This is an impossibility!

I agree, SBG.

It is the Lord Who first has to begin the work, through the preaching of the Gospel Message, from which faith comes (Romans 10:13).

I see that it is the Lord who first begins a work by opening the heart ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ) so that a person will even listen to His words.
They then either believe it because their hearts have been opened, or the reject it because their heart is still in darkness.

Then the Holy Spirit "convicts" the sinner of their sins, and their need for The Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 16:7-9).

I agree.

The person whom the Lord has graciously opened their heart ( the new birth or "regeneration" ) is convicted of their sinfulness by the word of God ( see James 1:18 ).
But the person whom the Lord has not opened their heart, will not believe the word of God and will not be convicted of their sinfulness.

 

[Dave G]

the sinner when "convicted", can respond as those did after Peter preached the Gospel in Acts chapter 2, and ask, "what shall we DO?" (2:37), to which Peter responds, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".

Unlike you, I see the Scriptures teaching that:
The sinner, if convicted, will respond favorably as those that Peter preached to in Acts of the Apostles 2, by asking "what shall we do?"

They are then born-again and become children of the Living God!

Regrettably, I find that I must disagree as in other threads.

I am of the belief that they evidence the fact that they are already born again and are already the children of God, when they hear the word of God, repent, and are baptized.
They then "become" ( begin to resemble ) the children of God per John 1:11-13.

Respectfully SBG, what you've just described ( at least to me ) in the above is what I know as "Prevenient Grace"...
which is God empowering all who hear the Gospel with the ability to either choose to believe it, or choose to reject it;
and not "electing grace" through the power of the new birth, thereby making salvation an entirely unmerited act of a holy God towards those who have offended Him.

This grace is only shown to those that He chooses to have mercy and compassion on, and no one else.

If it were "Prevenient", then we as sinners would have the unique "privilege" to have co-operated with the Lord in His work of salvation, and we therefore merit His favor if and when we choose to believe His words.
With "Electing Grace", we as sinners have the unique privilege to have relied on His operation alone, and on God's completely unmerited act of mercy and kindness towards us.
If we choose to believe His words, it's because He opened our hearts to receive them.

"Prevenient Grace" is essentially God relying on our act of belief to save us.
"Electing Grace" is God relying on His own work to make us alive, and we then believe because we are saved.

With Prevenient Grace, we as men can actually boast in something other than God's mercy...we can, conceivably, boast in our belief.
With Electing Grace, no man can boast, since it is God who does all the work in bringing one of His precious children to Him.


I wish you well, sir, and may He bless you in many ways.

 

[Dave G]

@canadyjd :

To answer the OP, I see that God "consituted" us as men precisely as Galatians 3:22 states:
" But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."

and as Romans 11:32 states:

" For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

Our present and continual condition towards the Lord is found in Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 and many more...
Especially in the Psalms.
Our belief of His words is the evidence ( not the determiner ) of a work that He has begun in us, as believers, and one that will continue until the day of the Lord:

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:" ( Philippians 1:6 ).

 

[Dave G]

1) If a person is unable to seek God, they are sinning when not seeking God.

If a person is unwilling to seek God, then they are sinning when not seeking God.

2) If a person is punished for not seeking God, they are punished because God made them unable to seek God.

If a person is punished for not seeking God, they are punished because God allowed them their free will choice,
and chose not to stop them from darkening their own minds towards Him.

That is what the Bible teaches, Van.

He did not make us unable to seek Him, or Paul would not have preached that we should do so ( Acts of the Apostles 17:24-30 ).
He does not keep us from seeking Him or obeying Him.

Again and as in other threads, we cannot because we.will.not.
That is our fundamental hangup when it comes to God...

Sin comes between us.

1) If a person is unable to seek God, they are sinning when not seeking God.
2) If a person is punished for not seeking God, they are punished because God made them unable to seek God.

Who would embrace this irrational and unbiblical twaddle?

Not me.

Contrary to what some may say, I hold that we as men are not robots.
We are completely responsible to seek God, and we absolutely ( outside of the new birth ) refuse to do that which the Lord has commanded us to do.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Unlike you, I see the Scriptures teaching that:
The sinner, if convicted, will respond favorably as those that Peter preached to in Acts of the Apostles 2, by asking "what shall we do?"

if this is true, that God is compelling a person to do somthing, and this person has zero say in this! This makes them nothing more than preprogrammed machines, not not responsible in any way. This is reformed theology and against the teachings of the Bible, which is very clear, when we are told to "CHOOSE this them whom we will serve" (Joshua 24:15) ann in many other places. This verses seem rather dumb if it is God Who actually COMPELS the sinner!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I agree, SBG.

I see that it is the Lord who first begins a work by opening the heart ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ) so that a person will even listen to His words.
They then either believe it because their hearts have been opened, or the reject it because their heart is still in darkness.

I agree.

The person whom the Lord has graciously opened their heart ( the new birth or "regeneration" ) is convicted of their sinfulness by the word of God ( see James 1:18 ).
But the person whom the Lord has not opened their heart, will not believe the word of God and will not be convicted of their sinfulness.

your theology is very much fatalistic! And makes a joke of the preaching of the Gospel. WHY preach to anyone when it is easier to just save those God wants in His Kingdom? This theology is utter nonsense!

 

[Dave G]

if this is true, that God is compelling a person to do somthing, and this person has zero say in this!

Which He does all the time, SBG.
I can give examples from Scripture where the Lord puts something into the heart of a person so that they will do it.

But something tells me that you will not believe those.

This makes them nothing more than preprogrammed machines, not not responsible in any way.

I disagree that we as men are pre-programmed robots.
I agree that we as rebellious sinners are not responsible for Him saving us.

This is reformed theology and against the teachings of the Bible, which is very clear, when we are told to "CHOOSE this them whom we will serve" (Joshua 24:15) ann in many other places.

I think you should look at that passage a little closer, my friend.
Look at who it was spoken to.

This verses seem rather dumb if it is God Who actually COMPELS the sinner!

Gracious compelling or "convicting" through the Holy Spirit ( which it seems that you've freely admitted to above in post # 2 ), also known as "calling", is a Biblical teaching, SBG.

God justifies those whom He "convicts" ...
According to Romans 8:29-30, they are foreknown, predestinated, "called", justified and glorified.

No one who is not foreknown, predestinated, etc. will ever truly be convicted of their sins by the power of the Holy Spirit and the truth of God's words.
No one outside of all of that will ever be justifed by the blood of His Son, and no one outside of that will ever have true faith that endures all their trials a tribulations in this life.

It's really that simple..
Yet, it is a miracle of God's grace and mercy.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Which He does all the time, SBG.
I can give examples from Scripture where the Lord puts something into the heart of a person so that they will do it.

But something tells me you will not believe those.

I disagree in that we as men are pre-programmed robots.
I agree in that we as rebellious sinners are not responsible for Him saving us.

I think you should look at that passage a little closer, my friend.

Gracious compelling or "convicting" through the Holy Spirit ( which you've freely admitted to above ), also known as "calling", is a Biblical teaching, SBG.

you probably accept the teachings in the reformed confessions that say that God has "ordained all things that come to pass", which, whether the reformed like it or not, makes God the direct author of sin. Either God has ordained all things, or He has not, you cannot have this both ways. It is very evident that all humans have the free will to either accept, or reject the Gospel, or else passages like John 5:39-40, and Acts 13:26, are nonsense!

 

[Dave G]

@canadyjd :
Thank you for the privilege of replying to your thread, sir.
I'll bow out now, as my purpose here was to share my opinions and reply to certain posts that I found that I both agreed and disagreed with, and why.

May the Lord bless you and keep you through your many trials and tribulations,
to come forth with a greater faith in Him and His promises than when you started.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Gracious compelling or "convicting" through the Holy Spirit ( which you've freely admitted to above ), also known as "calling", is a Biblical teaching, SBG.

you need to understand the English language before you make such comments. to "compel" is to FORCE, To "call" is to REQUEST , to "convict" is to make a person feel GUILTY!

 

[SavedByGrace]

@canadyjd :
Thank you for the privilege of replying to your thread, sir.
I'll bow out now, as my purpose here was to share my opinions and reply to certain posts that I found that a both agreed and disagreed with, and why.

May the Lord bless you and keep you through your many trials and tribulations,
to come forth with a greater faith in Him and His promises than when you started.

it is not my thread!

 

[canadyjd]

@canadyjd :
Thank you for the privilege of replying to your thread, sir.
I'll bow out now, as my purpose here was to share my opinions and reply to certain posts that I found that I both agreed and disagreed with, and why.

May the Lord bless you and keep you through your many trials and tribulations,
to come forth with a greater faith in Him and His promises than when you started.

Thank you for your civil comments and prayer for blessings

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Calvinism makes God the author of sin, because God ordains (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass. But in the next sentence, Calvinism says God is not the author of sin. So OTOH, God predestines every sin, yet does not predestine every sin.
Behold the cognitive dissonance of Calvinism.
1) If a person is unable to seek God, they are sinning when not seeking God.
2) If a person is punished for not seeking God, they are punished because God made them unable to seek God.

Who would embrace this irrational and unbiblical twaddle?

Will you answer the OP? How did God “constitute” mankind after the fall and on what basis did He act?

peace to you

 

[Van]

I

If a person is punished for not seeking God, they are punished because God allowed them their free will choice,
and chose not to stop them from darkening their own minds towards Him.
/QUOTE]

Here once again a Calvinist denies Calvinism, Calvinism teaches the lost are unable, due to total spiritual inability, to seek God.

Beware doctrine that must be misrepresented to be defended.