[FONT="]This is a subject that (it seems to me) has always been one of reluctance to try to understand.. But not without good reason, I suppose, because the purpose of the gospels and epistles is to put our faith and trust in Him, not to contemplate whether he knew he was the fullness of the godhead before he started nursery school (or its equivalent). And the few attempts I’ve heard of to give some portrayal of his childhood seem rather bizarre; such as one in which he was with other children shaping clay, and he created a bird that flew away. But did he have to learn who he was, or did he always know? If the latter is true, he really went through some boring years, being fed and changed with a knowledge of things infinitely superior to the ones caring for him. Note that multiple answers are allowed in the poll.[/FONT]
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How did Jesus know and grow here below?
- Thread starter Alcott
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salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
Luke 2:40 And the child (Christ) grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. In Luke 1:15 scripture say's that John Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mothers womb and in Luke 1:44 John leaped in the womb for joy as soon as he heard Mary voice. I believe that Christ like John already had the Holy Ghost living within himself when he was born because in Luke 2:40 the scripture say's as he grew, he waxed strong in spirit and was filled with wisdom.
I didn't take the poll.
Personally I believe He does want us to think on these things even though we cannot absolutely know in this flesh.
Science has taken much of the mystery out of our understanding of our earthly life but no amount of learning can take the mystery out of our spiritual life.
And I believe that is what our father in heaven intends.
For us to try to comprehend and contemplate the mystery of the incarnation and our redemption (among the many other works of our God).
Personally I believe He does want us to think on these things even though we cannot absolutely know in this flesh.
Science has taken much of the mystery out of our understanding of our earthly life but no amount of learning can take the mystery out of our spiritual life.
And I believe that is what our father in heaven intends.
For us to try to comprehend and contemplate the mystery of the incarnation and our redemption (among the many other works of our God).
Ecclesiastes 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.
HankD
It's split 2-2 so far as to whether Jesus knew from birth or before who he was, compared to that as he grew he came to know who he was. The implications of the first don't necessarily go outside these points, such as whether he knew every human language and geographical fact even before he was born. But regardless of how specific you get, I think you must come to the conclusion that he was play-acting if he acted like a baby, toddler, and child, but had infinitely superior knowledge and power than any adult.
Yet with the only alternative being that he came to realize who he was as he grew with time, did he ever do anything as a kid? Certainly he couldn't have lied or murdered anybody, or lusted as he got into those years in which it begins to happen. And indeed, I've wondered before how it was he did not dishonor his parents by having slipped away from them, leaving them to search 3 days before finding him back at the temple. For, as it's very plain scripturally that he was never guilty of any sin, does this indicate that sin is pre-canceled by choosing a better action that can be carried out by means of what normally would be sin... and that includes actions in which such is not mandatory, considering that he could have at least informed them of his purpose in leaving the traveling party. The only other way around this, it seems, is that is not sin to leave one's parents wondering for days where one is.
Yet with the only alternative being that he came to realize who he was as he grew with time, did he ever do anything as a kid? Certainly he couldn't have lied or murdered anybody, or lusted as he got into those years in which it begins to happen. And indeed, I've wondered before how it was he did not dishonor his parents by having slipped away from them, leaving them to search 3 days before finding him back at the temple. For, as it's very plain scripturally that he was never guilty of any sin, does this indicate that sin is pre-canceled by choosing a better action that can be carried out by means of what normally would be sin... and that includes actions in which such is not mandatory, considering that he could have at least informed them of his purpose in leaving the traveling party. The only other way around this, it seems, is that is not sin to leave one's parents wondering for days where one is.
Your thread raises more questions than it answers.
Did Jesus know everything imaginable at conception? Or did He set aside His knowledge at conception? Those that say God cannot put things out of His mind must wonder how Jesus grew in knowledge and wisdom.
Next, did Jesus do things that would be considered sin such as wandering off to do His Father's work? It seems obvious if God wants you to do something, then whatever it is, it is not sin. But is this loophole how we consider Jesus sinless? Nope.
Did Jesus know everything imaginable at conception? Or did He set aside His knowledge at conception? Those that say God cannot put things out of His mind must wonder how Jesus grew in knowledge and wisdom.
Next, did Jesus do things that would be considered sin such as wandering off to do His Father's work? It seems obvious if God wants you to do something, then whatever it is, it is not sin. But is this loophole how we consider Jesus sinless? Nope.
It hadn't even occurred to me yet, in thinking about this, that my own little (by comparison) experience is kind of similar. The night I made my decision for Christ was March 17, 1969, when I was 10, and there was a county-wide youth revival at a small town's public high school. Many churches participated that first night (Sunday), but I was part of smaller group from the church of mostly kids that went in just 2 or 3 cars on that Monday. The speaker was Mike Brumley, a recently retired major league baseball player (he later had a son with the same name who was a player). I was still in the phase of just beginning to understand what it meant to be "saved." And even though I don't remember any particular thing from the message that night, I had a persuasion I couldn't resist to go forward with that number of others who had, forgetting all about my ride to that town & back or anything else. Of course, we were directed to a room and these counselors talked to us, and all that. All I remember after those 15-20 minutes there is coming out and being met by someone else other than the adults that drove the car I had come in, saying "___'s been looking for you." So I went home with someone else from our church, whom I wouldn't even have known, had she not gotten the word that I was missing. But at the time nothing else mattered to doing what I was so sure God wanted me to do by some kind of irresistible persuasion I never had before or since. So I've never thought of it as being a kid who caused trouble and worry for somebody; including my mom, who, when I finally came in, was on the phone with the one whom I had ridden up with, telling her about the situation.
So, all I can think to say, then, is if there is a higher calling, just as we are to obey God rather than man [authorities], it can be part of that principle even to do something that would normally be an escapade; disrespectful, that is.
So, all I can think to say, then, is if there is a higher calling, just as we are to obey God rather than man [authorities], it can be part of that principle even to do something that would normally be an escapade; disrespectful, that is.
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Jesus assumed human form, becoming FULLy Human, yet while remaining FULLy God also!
So in his humanity, would be as us in knowing/learning/discovering things, as he allowed Himself to take on human flesh, with its iinherit limitations, just as one of us EXCEPT that he had NO sin nature!
So in his humanity, experienced growing just as we all do, but also at same time knew and understood all things as God!
Do humans know anything God doesn't? If there was nothing for him to grow in other than a physical body-- that is, he had no growing mentally to do-- those 30 years may have been more anguish than the beatings and the cross, which took place in one day. That must compare to one of us having to go live in a Bugs Bunny cartoon for 30 years.
Asserting an absurdity is a very common response for ignoring scripture.
If Jesus understood all things as God He did not grow in wisdom. When scripture says one thing and well accepted doctrine says another, we get assertions of absurdity. Oh and "its a mystery."
If Jesus understood all things as God He did not grow in wisdom. When scripture says one thing and well accepted doctrine says another, we get assertions of absurdity. Oh and "its a mystery."
quantumfaith
Active Member
One of those "eternal questions" which the "church" and christendom has wrestled with since the beginning. We understand somethings, while others remain cloudy in our understanding.
I like John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth
I like John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth
Pitchback
It does not bolster an argument to simply repeat the absurdity.
To day Jesus knew all things, yet grew in wisdom is absurd. You cannot bury it under big words like incarnation. When Jesus asked questions or said He did not know things, He was seeking information and not lying.
No need to rewrite the bible and make scripture to no effect to avoid conflict with man-made doctrine.
It does not bolster an argument to simply repeat the absurdity.
To day Jesus knew all things, yet grew in wisdom is absurd. You cannot bury it under big words like incarnation. When Jesus asked questions or said He did not know things, He was seeking information and not lying.
No need to rewrite the bible and make scripture to no effect to avoid conflict with man-made doctrine.
The interesting thing with the poll so far is that there is not agreement about any of the statements, as only 4 out of 10 say he knew who he was by birth or before, while 4 out of 10 say he came to know who he was as he grew. And 40% is the greatest answer percentage of any of the statements.
And only 30% think he had to study the scriptures extensively to know them all. So do the rest think he never had to study scriptures-- or anything else-- to know all about them, or about anything at all? That reemphasizes the question of 'What did he spend 30 years doing then?'. Nothing new to be discovered...no place to go or experience to have, because he knew exactly about everything. But there is certainly no evidence he went around healing, or righting wrongs, or teaching about himself. Indeed, of healings and righting wrongs, compared to all such needs in the world, he did little of these even after he began to 'go public' with his mission on earth. And of teaching about himself, there are indications he did very little of that before age 30.
And only 30% think he had to study the scriptures extensively to know them all. So do the rest think he never had to study scriptures-- or anything else-- to know all about them, or about anything at all? That reemphasizes the question of 'What did he spend 30 years doing then?'. Nothing new to be discovered...no place to go or experience to have, because he knew exactly about everything. But there is certainly no evidence he went around healing, or righting wrongs, or teaching about himself. Indeed, of healings and righting wrongs, compared to all such needs in the world, he did little of these even after he began to 'go public' with his mission on earth. And of teaching about himself, there are indications he did very little of that before age 30.
Jesus emptied Himself of 'something' when he came toearth in the incarnation, and that self limitation involved taking on the inherent weakness of being fully human, without a sinful nature!
As a Man, helearned patience, learned obedience, learned and matured...
Howeveryou want to say it, Jesus was fully God, and Fully man!
At the same was always God, so also knew all things still, butdecided NOT to operate as God, but as man here!
saturneptune
New Member
He knew the day He graduated from Bob Jones University. On a serious note, I agree with KyRedNeck, from the beginning or close to it.
None of us can know how the Father interacted with His Son, while His Son was in the flesh created in His image. Only very small bits and pieces have been revealed to us through the scriptures.
It's a good question to ponder, IMO. Doing so causes us to look at Jesus both as a man and as God.
Scriptures tell us that God will not put more temptation on us than what we can bear. Scriptures also tell us to grow in maturity in His word. We are to be weaned of milk and seek meat.
Would it not seem likely that those same principles would apply as the Father guided His Son while in the flesh? Just as the Holy Spirit (when we let Him) guides us into greater and greater awareness of our Heavenly Father, as well.
A newborn human baby may have the gift of Einstein's intelligence, the gift of music equal to the greatest composers of the world, and/or other qifts on the same level. That does not mean a newborn is aware of those or has the ability to use them. But they are there, never the less.
A good parent will help nuture those gifts and help bring them into maturity as the child becomes ready to apply them. God may have given us a few glimses of how He was a parent to His Child in the scriptures. One at age 12, another when the dove decended at His baptism. Scripture doesn't record the details of their relationship, at age 5, for example. Nor do we know if His Father revealed all at once or were incremental steps taken. For example at age 12 He knew the scriptures but may not have known He possessed the ability to heal with just a word or touch.
We do know that when Jesus began His ministry that He knew He would be the sacrifice for mankind. Yet, we do not know whether He knew the totality of that until His sweat was like great drops of blood.
All we can do is ponder this question. And ponder it we should because of the implications within our own Parent/child relationship with our Triune God.
It's a good question to ponder, IMO. Doing so causes us to look at Jesus both as a man and as God.
Scriptures tell us that God will not put more temptation on us than what we can bear. Scriptures also tell us to grow in maturity in His word. We are to be weaned of milk and seek meat.
Would it not seem likely that those same principles would apply as the Father guided His Son while in the flesh? Just as the Holy Spirit (when we let Him) guides us into greater and greater awareness of our Heavenly Father, as well.
A newborn human baby may have the gift of Einstein's intelligence, the gift of music equal to the greatest composers of the world, and/or other qifts on the same level. That does not mean a newborn is aware of those or has the ability to use them. But they are there, never the less.
A good parent will help nuture those gifts and help bring them into maturity as the child becomes ready to apply them. God may have given us a few glimses of how He was a parent to His Child in the scriptures. One at age 12, another when the dove decended at His baptism. Scripture doesn't record the details of their relationship, at age 5, for example. Nor do we know if His Father revealed all at once or were incremental steps taken. For example at age 12 He knew the scriptures but may not have known He possessed the ability to heal with just a word or touch.
We do know that when Jesus began His ministry that He knew He would be the sacrifice for mankind. Yet, we do not know whether He knew the totality of that until His sweat was like great drops of blood.
All we can do is ponder this question. And ponder it we should because of the implications within our own Parent/child relationship with our Triune God.
More denial of scripture does not get it done. Jesus asked questions and said He did not know stuff. Therefore, while incarnate, He learned and grew in wisdom.
Doctrine needs to be based on scripture, not speculation. He knew who He was at age 12. He learned. Therefore He did not know all things about everything while incarnate. Pretty simple.
This should have 100% agreement, but no. Rather it is denied to support errant man-made doctrine.
Doctrine needs to be based on scripture, not speculation. He knew who He was at age 12. He learned. Therefore He did not know all things about everything while incarnate. Pretty simple.
This should have 100% agreement, but no. Rather it is denied to support errant man-made doctrine.