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How Do The RCC/orthodox Churches Fit Ephesians 2:8-9 Into their theologies?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
We are saved by God's grace through our faith and not by works. It is simple really. It makes one wonder why Protestants are so confused about the power of grace and its power to save. Many in contrast follow the man-made heresy of "faith alone" which is condemned in Scriptures the only place it appears. God bless!
I'm sorry but to call faith alone a heresy and man-made is to deny the Scriptures.
Additionally, you say right here that we are saved by God's grace through our faith and not by works. That's faith alone. But then you disagree with that and say that it is a heresy. Why is that?
by Francis Beckwith, former President of the Evangelical Theological Society:
"Then when I read the Fathers, those closest to the Apostles, the Reformation doctrine was just not there. To be sure, salvation by grace was there. To be sure, the necessity of faith was there. And to be sure, works righteousness apart from God's grace was decried. But what was present was a profound understanding of how saving faith was not a singular event that took place "on a Wednesday," to quote a famous Gospel song, but that it was the grace of God working through me as I acquiesced to God's spirit to allow his grace to shape and mold my character so that I may be conformed to the image of Christ. I also found it in the Catechism.
"Then when I read the Fathers, those closest to the Apostles, the Reformation doctrine was just not there. To be sure, salvation by grace was there. To be sure, the necessity of faith was there. And to be sure, works righteousness apart from God's grace was decried. But what was present was a profound understanding of how saving faith was not a singular event that took place "on a Wednesday," to quote a famous Gospel song, but that it was the grace of God working through me as I acquiesced to God's spirit to allow his grace to shape and mold my character so that I may be conformed to the image of Christ. I also found it in the Catechism.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
It works this way. Imagine a person who is not saved and has no faith. No matter what they do to earn salvation they can't do it. They can feed all the people in the world, they can give everything to the poor and no matter what they do to earn salvation they cannot do it. They can never put themselves in a position by what they do to have God owe them salvation. It is impossible. Its an impossible mission. It truelly is Mission Impossible....Dah dah dada dah dah dooodoodoodoododooo dah dah! :smilewinkgrin:
No. First God needs to make that man capable of receiving faith. And then offer that faith at which point the man can refuse or accept that faith but the only sensable decision is to accept that faith. Upon Acceptance of that faith The man accepts the belief which is part of that faith and the consequences of that faith which is to be obedient to God. To say that the man recieved faith but not obedience to that faith is like say he rejected that faith. What we want to get away from is the idea that intellectual assent of its own or alone can save a person. That isn't a saving Faith. How can we tell what kind of faith saves? The kind of faith that saves leads the person to obedience the other kind does not in essense it just boils down to intellectual assent. Faith comes with obedience to that faith.
The Catholic Church doesn't hold to "Faith alone" because with that statement generally holds is that there is no requirement for obedience to that faith. In other words all I have to do is believe Jesus saves me and I can go about my own sinful way and not worry about my salvation. And in most protestant perspective the only consiquence to continual life of sin after this heart felt belief has been attained is a guilty conscience. But God wants us to be wholly new beings. Not live in bondage. So we must run the race. Which is why Paul constantly admonishes the Corinthians to not continue in sin. And Salvation is not a singular event because it continues to transform us daily into Jesus Christ's image.
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So then we are saved by faith plus works. If we MUST work in order to be saved, then we are saved by those works.
Instead, Scripture shows us that works are a result of a life changed. That we are saved and because we are saved, we will do the works that flow from that salvation. A new creation lives a different way than the old creation - and it is a result of being "saved through faith alone". We are not "saved through faith as long as we do works".
remember here that catholic Church mingles justification and sanctification, so they end of with persons having to assist God to make them good enough to be justified, by partaking of the Sacraments of grace!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
How did you get that? Obedience is a direct result of faith. Ie no obedience no faith.
Again how did you get that from what I said? You must have read that into it.
Scripture by no means shows us that all we need is intellectual assent to be saved as you are attempting to indicate.
Are you sure you read what I said? Or did you just read it with an already made up mind?
Do you deny that a sinner can be immediatly justified by God at moment of receiving jesus as our Saviour by faith in Him?
That its NO Sacramental grace that saves us before God, but thru faith alone, by grace of the death of jesus for our behalf alone?
The main reason no one can agree is that everyone has a different set of definitions for the same words. Our jargon is different in every group which disagrees. This is why every group has something added to the scripture--exception: the sola scriptura people, and even they have a disagreement about what infallibility means in terms of translations.
Examples of stuff added: Writings of church fathers, traditions of church fathers, papal bulls ex-officio, decisions of the magisterium, writings of the Catechisms, apparitions, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, New World Translation, direct revelations/dreams of many, etal, etal, etal.
God is not the author of confusion. Let God be found true and every man lying.
The biggest departure: The scripture is spiritually discerned. Many in high places are like Nicodemus, John Ch. 3, they are not born again and have not a clue as to which The Grace of God might mean.
Peace,
Bro. James
Examples of stuff added: Writings of church fathers, traditions of church fathers, papal bulls ex-officio, decisions of the magisterium, writings of the Catechisms, apparitions, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, New World Translation, direct revelations/dreams of many, etal, etal, etal.
God is not the author of confusion. Let God be found true and every man lying.
The biggest departure: The scripture is spiritually discerned. Many in high places are like Nicodemus, John Ch. 3, they are not born again and have not a clue as to which The Grace of God might mean.
Peace,
Bro. James
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
No. Again read what I actually said not what you want to read into what I said. First of all I said nothing about Justification. Salvation is inclusive of a lot of things to include Justification. Justification is not forensic. Which means it is not just a legal declaration and it is not just immediate.
Now lets start with with the unsaved man. Lets start with a man who 1) has no faith. 2) Is living in his sin. Lets start there. Now first God must make that man able to have faith. Then God must offer that faith freely to the man. At this point the man has two choices 1) he can accept the faith freely given by God or 2) he can reject that faith freely offered by God. The only reasonable response is to accept that faith. Now lets say that the man now made able to recieve that faith decides to accept that faith. Now lets say the moment after acceptance of that faith this man dies. He then is Justified and will go to heaven. Now lets say the man does not die. Lets say he only has an intellectual acceptance of that faith but that faith does not lead him to obedience. That man is not justfied. Let say however the faith he has leads him to obedience and he follows the teachings of Christ he is justified and will go to heaven. But lets say he decides to reject that faith for something else he is not justified. But lets say he follows christ until the day he dies he is justified and will go to heaven. Lets say he rejects christ only to repent that man is justified and will go to heaven.
First of all you don't know the first thing about "Sacrament" and thus Your statement seems ludicrious. Sacrament isn't a work. Its a participation in the divine life of Jesus Christ. Jesus being God became incarnate. He became a man and could be seen and touched and lived among men. This is the incarnation principle. God when he healed the Israelites from snake poison didn't say Just intellectually believe I will heal you and you will be healed He had Moses make a snake and put it on a pole and lifted it up. All those bitten had but to look at it to be healed. That is the incarnation principle. God created man and deals with man in a real palpable way. Jesus had to be a man and physically suffer as a man in order to save us. He didn't just seem like a man. Thus when participating in the divine life of Christ we do things in a real palpable way. That is the incarnation principle and the essense of Sacrament. Thus when we are baptized we are as Paul says "buried with Christ" and when we come up out of the water we are as Paul says "raised with Christ".
Best funny anoalogy
A catholic man dies and goes up to the gates of heaven
He is so happy and saint Peter says wait a minute you need a 100 points to get in.
The man says I gave 10% of my income to the church
Saint Peter says that's worth 1 point
(man discouraged) says my wife and I started a pro life group and we always practiced nfp
Saint Peter says that's worth 2 points
(man very very discouraged) says I did all these things in faith to our lord Jesus because I love and worship God so much
Saint Peter good that's worth 100 points come on in
Thats orthodox theology, do you really love god if you make your own rules and not Gods by interpating the bible to suit your individual needs
???
A catholic man dies and goes up to the gates of heaven
He is so happy and saint Peter says wait a minute you need a 100 points to get in.
The man says I gave 10% of my income to the church
Saint Peter says that's worth 1 point
(man discouraged) says my wife and I started a pro life group and we always practiced nfp
Saint Peter says that's worth 2 points
(man very very discouraged) says I did all these things in faith to our lord Jesus because I love and worship God so much
Saint Peter good that's worth 100 points come on in
Thats orthodox theology, do you really love god if you make your own rules and not Gods by interpating the bible to suit your individual needs
???
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That's a lousy analogy. Instead, I'd hope to answer as such:
“When we stand before God at the judgment, what do you plan to do or say in order to convince Him to count you righteous and admit you to all the blessings of His kingdom? ... [What could we possibly] hold up before Him and say ‘God, on account of this justify me!’
“ I’ll tell you what every Christian whose faith is in Christ alone will do, by God’s grace. They will simply and quietly point to Jesus... ‘ O God, do not look for any righteousness in my own life, but look at your Son. Do not count me righteous because of anything I’ve done or am. Count me righteous because of Jesus. He lived the life I should have lived. He died the death I deserve. I have renounced all other trusts, my plea is Him alone. Justify me O God because of Jesus.” (adapted from “What is the Gospel” p.83 by Greg Gilbert)
Second the terrible analogy. It is a good analogy of salvation by works in a thin disguise--kind of like St. Nicolaus and the mass of Christ. "Not by acts of righteous which we have done, but according to His mercy He has saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit; which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by His Grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:5-7.
Peter is not the one giving the well dones and depart from me, I never knew you.
There is a communication problem--the Word of God is spiritually discerned. It does not make sense to the unregenerated. The paradigms are completely different.
Peace,
Bro. James
Peter is not the one giving the well dones and depart from me, I never knew you.
There is a communication problem--the Word of God is spiritually discerned. It does not make sense to the unregenerated. The paradigms are completely different.
Peace,
Bro. James
I get thinkingsuff's point...
If we are are saved by an instantaneous expression of faith and no further actions are required - such as avoiding sin and loving God and our neighbor...
On what basis would God say "Well done"?
If Jesus is not saying, "I do not know you" to such an individual who would He say it to?
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Here is our first problem. This is not a two step program in God's Word. If you look at Ephesians 2:1-10 the subject is quickening the spiritually dead man. Verse 1 states the fact while verses 2-3 explain what they were prior to quickening. If you will kindly study those previous attributes listed in verses 2-3 that is what is changed by quickening:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
In verse 5 it is again asserted they were quickened with a brief summary explanation that quickening is a past tense "savED" by grace experience:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
The added explanation here is instructional. This quickening was "with Christ" or as it is later stated in verse 10 it is a work only God can do "his workmanship" as it requires a CREATIVE act or "created IN CHRIST." However, here in verse 5 Paul introduces this completed work "with Christ" as a work that is accomplished "by grace ye are savED")
Verse 8 Paul continues this same description of quickening as a work in connection with Christ but expands upon it a little further - "For by grace are ye saved THROUGH faith."
Hence, he has now asserted twice it is a completed work "savED" and it is the work of God "with Christ" and accomplished "by grace." However in this second instance he expounds upon the meaning of grace by contrast and then explains why it must be accomplished solely by God.
This work of quickening is through faith rather than how you have explained it in a two step method. It is not quickened and then followed by faith but it is a finished work ("savED") that includes faith as it is accomplished "THROUGH FAITH." This work of God is then asserted to be "and that not of yourselves for it is a GIFT of God" The Greek preposition "ek" with the negative particle absolutely denies that this "saved" work of God includes human participation as it is "a gift" from God "and not of works, lest any man should boast."
Now, significantly the phrase "not of works" speaks of works originating from "ourselves" prior to quickening while "unto good works" in verse 10 speaks of works originating out of ourselves after quickening.
Faith fits NEITHER category! It is not "of works" prior to quckening OR part of "good works" after quickening but is inclusive as God's "workmanship" and his CREATIVE work of quckening as "faith" occurs "by grace are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH" - This is the "workmanship of God" or being "CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS" just as vers 5 describes quickening as being "WITH CHRIST."
Bottom line - faith does not originate in and of man but is a creative work of God in the act of quickening which is the past tense "savED" state of man.
Now, this does not occur in baptism for a very obvious reason. Look again at verses 2-3 which show the past tense prior to quickening whereas faith is inseparably involved in the creative work of God in quickening.
You cannot possibly say that verses 2-3 describe the condition of the person being baptized. Hence baptism cannot possibly be the modus operandi for quickening.
Are you going to tell us that just prior to water being applied to the candidate for baptism that such a candidate is aptly described presently as one:
1. Still walking after the course of the world at the point of baptism?
2. Still having Satan working in him at the point of baptism?
3. Still a child of disobedience at the point of baptism?
Ephesians 4:18 also describes additional characteristics of the person still separated from "the life of God." Are you going to tell us that at the point of baptism such descriptions still characterize the candidate?? Look at them:
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: \19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
1. Still having the understanding darkened at the point of baptism?
2. Still ignorant
3. Still blind
4. Still past feeling
5. Still given ove unto lasciviiousness
6. Still working uncleaness with greediness
The act of quckening changes all the above while prior to the point of quickening
all the above still characterize that candidate.
It does not take too much common sense to figure out that the candidate for baptism must already possess these changes BEFORE they are baptized.
There is no such thing as a believing unregenerated person or an unbelieving regenerated person as regeneration is INCLUSIVE of faith and change of all these characteristics.
Alive in Christ
New Member
I dont know why he did that. He seems to be confused
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Here is your first problem. I didn't make it a two step program. I broke down the condition of the man specifically two aspects of that man to explain a view. So the entirety of the rest of your post is a non-sequitur. And as such you aren't really responding to what I've said. You are just taking an oportunity to preach your view. You niether answer what I said and you go off on a tangent.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Thanks some people can put it more susinctly than I can.
If you are not listing two steps then why do you say, "First" and "then"?
Now first God must make that man able to have faith. Then God must offer that faith freely to the man. - WM