How does Rome and the Pope view Child Molestors?

[Joseph_Botwinick]

WARNING: IF YOU ARE A CATHOLIC AND EASILY OFFENDED BY CRITICISM OF SIN IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, PLEASE GO TO ANOTHER TOPIC. AND JUST SO YOU KNOW, NO I DON'T RESPECT THE CATHOLIC FAITH VERY MUCH ANYMORE. I USED TO LIKE CATHOLICISM AND DEFEND SOME OF THEIR STUFF. BUT THE WHOLE COVER UP MAKES ME SICK AND I WILL PROBABLY BE VENTING A BIT HERE.

Now that we got that out of the way, I am wondering, is there any reason that the Pope would remove a Bishop, Cardinal, etc...? I heard on a news report that Rome doesn't see sexual molestation as big a deal as we reasonable civilized people here in America do. Where as we see it as a heinous crime for which one should go to prison, Rome seems to view it as simply another sin and is willing to allow these criminals to remain in their positions as Bishops, etc...

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/127/story_12761_1.html

Before the Catholics spew the same old stuff about Baptists having scandals in their Churches, let me point out that while it is true that there are pedophile ministers in the Baptist Church, when they are discovered, they are no longer employed by the Church and it certainly is not covered up. I know from first hand experince where a minister was turned into the police by a local Church that I attended for doing evil stuff with kids.

So, Catholics:

1. Isn't pedophilia a good enough reason to be removed from any ministry dealing with kids?

2. Isn't covering up the pedophilia and allowing it to happen over and over again a crime and worthy of being defrocked as a Bishop, Cardinal, etc... and shouldn't they go to prison?

3. Do you support the fact that Rome and the Pope seems to have no problem with sin in his Church and with obstructing justice?

4. How can we trust a guy to lead us in morality and teach us anything about the Bible or Christianity when he allows these sinful crimes to go on in his Church and does nothing to stop it (the Pope)? Why should anyone listen to anything this guy says?

Thank You,

Joseph Botwinick

 

[WPutnam]

For Mr. Joseph_Botwinick...

Taking the article you linked to at face value, the first thing I think this bishop should do is resign from his see! It would appear that he is unfit for the leadership expected of a bishop!

And that would apply as well to any non-Catholic clergyman whe did likewise, whether he "shielded" a fellow clergyman under his authority, or in general, sheielded his denomination from such charges.

Or do you reject the idea that this problem is just as prevalant in other denominations, being small enough to be under the radar screen of the media, that they would be exposed as well?

Am I angry at your post here? No, just saddened that you would even post it, wondering of what your intentions were.

And so I ask, if I were to post a similar expose' on a portion of your own particular denonination, would you be angry?

Or, would you kneel down with me and pray to God to search the souls of such perpetrators and appeal to them that they would repent of their terrible sins?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Almighty and eternal God, you gather
the scattered sheep

and watch over those
you have gathered.

Look kindly on all who follow Jesus,
your Son.

You have marked them
with the seal of one baptism,
now make them one
in the fullness of faith
and unite them in the bond of love.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen.

 

[MikeS]

First, a question for you: are you seriously interested in searching for truth in this matter, or do you just want to kick the Catholic Church? For example, you mention pedophilia, but very, very few cases of abuse were actually pedophilia. Most involved teens, often of the age of consent, and most of those involved homosexual behavior.

Does this mean it was OK? Absolutely not! As a Catholic, believe me when I say I want to kick some people too! I'm just wondering if your questions are a serious inquiry or not.

 

[donnA]

I would think that anyone, at the very least, would wnat to keep them away from children, instead of moving them elsewhere tow ork wih more children, in effect giving permission by putting them more children. I would think anyone who loved and honored God would at least agree with that much.
And that would be a start.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by MikeS:
For example, you mention pedophilia, but very, very few cases of abuse were actually pedophilia. Most involved teens, often of the age of consent, and most of those involved homosexual behavior.

I notice you are from San FranSicko. I am not the least bit surprised after reading your liberal statement above. Let me set you straight on something, in most civilized places, whether it is consentual or not, having sex with teens is still a crime and is still pedophilia. You are very wrong here and should seek wisdom about the truth. a 13 to 17 year old kid is not mature enough to make a decision like this when matched up with a 30 + authority figure / spiritual leader who knows how to manipulate their emotions. These people are mentally diseased and at the least, should be locked up in a mental institution. And the leaders who allowed these perverts to perpetrate this crime and covered it up should go to prison and should not be listened to.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by WPutnam:
For Mr. Joseph_Botwinick...

Taking the article you linked to at face value, the first thing I think this bishop should do is resign from his see! It would appear that he is unfit for the leadership expected of a bishop!

So, should he be arrested and put in prison for obstruction of justice and covering up a crime?

And that would apply as well to any non-Catholic clergyman whe did likewise, whether he "shielded" a fellow clergyman under his authority, or in general, sheielded his denomination from such charges.

Or do you reject the idea that this problem is just as prevalant in other denominations, being small enough to be under the radar screen of the media, that they would be exposed as well?

Am I angry at your post here? No, just saddened that you would even post it, wondering of what your intentions were.

And so I ask, if I were to post a similar expose' on a portion of your own particular denonination, would you be angry?

Or, would you kneel down with me and pray to God to search the souls of such perpetrators and appeal to them that they would repent of their terrible sins?[/QUOTE]

I would not only be angry. I would not only pray that they would repent. I would not only minister to the pervert and witness to him / her and hope they get saved. I would also do everything in my power to make sure that:

1. They never minister in any Church ever again.
2. They go to prison.
3. The denomination who allowed this cursed behavior be shamed as publicly as possible. I would not be a part of an evil religious society that covers up crimes such as this.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Carson Weber]

having sex with teens is still a crime and is still pedophilia.

Pedophilia is the act or fantasy on the part of an adult of engaging in sexual activity with prepubescent children. The vast majority of the clerical sex-abuse scandals now coming to light do not involve pedophilia. Rather, they involve ephebophilia -- homosexual attraction to adolescent boys. While the total number of sexual abusers in the priesthood is much higher than those guilty of pedophilia, it still amounts to less than 2 percent -- comparable to the rate among married men (Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests).

"Pedophilia (the sexual abuse of a prepubescent child) among priests is extremely rare, affecting only 0.3% of the entire population of clergy. This figure, cited in the book Pedophiles and Priests by non-Catholic scholar, Philip Jenkins, is from the most comprehensive study to date, which found that only one out of 2,252 priests considered over a thirty-year period was afflicted with pedophilia. In the recent Boston scandal, only four of the more than eighty priests labeled by the media as 'pedophiles' are actually guilty of molesting young children." (Deal Hudson, Editor of Crisis Magazine)

For everyone's information:

Catholic Commentary on the Scandals in the Church

The above link will be of great help for any Catholic or non-Catholic in reading Catholic perspectives on the scandals, including myth-debunking material based upon secular sources.

 

[CatholicConvert]

Dear Brother Joseph --

I offer NO DEFENSE for what has happened in the Church, for there simply is none.

If you will search the Internet using the words "Traditionalist Catholic", you will find that there are still Catholics of the "old school" out there who are beyond outraged at what has happened in the Church. At some of these sites, I have actually seen some them call for the death penalty upon all who are convicted of such molestation. Unfortunately, in the rather liberal atmosphere of the Catholic Faith today, they are subject to a lot of verbal abuse for taking such a strong stand.

You are right in your judgements. One of the problems we have is that John Paul II, while a theologian PAR EXCELLANCE, is not as good an administrator of the Church. It seems that throughout history this has been the case: a pope is either very good administratively, and a nominal (albeit orthodox) theologian, or he is an excellent theologica who couldn't administer a hotdog stand. Don't know why this is.

I share your outrage, but what I do not share is your disdain for the Faith. You must always try to look at them separately. The sins of persons are not doctrinal sins of the Church. They are failures of individuals. The greater failure was the cover ups and the horrid way the whole mess was handled.

And many, many of us Catholics are praying for a general "housecleaning" in the Church which will restore it to its purity.

Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,


Brother Ed

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Brother Ed,

I knew there was a reason I liked you. You don't seem like most Catholics I talk to or meet. You are not afraid to admit that the Holy Father, Pope John Paul, is not perfect. But, how could a person be a great theologian and a Godly man and still approve and even aid and abbett such filth? Isn't that kinda part of the Catholic faith...isn't the Pope supposed to be like almost as perfect as God? I mean, the Catholics I meet sure do put a lot of stock in his teachings and creeds. And if he is so wrong about something like this, then why should I ever listen to him about theological matters and scripture interpretation? (I am very sincere with that question). Why do I need a Pope when the Holy Spirit lives within me and guides me? Why do I need a creed which has been written and revised by man throughout many centuries? Written by men with their own little agendas.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeS:
For example, you mention pedophilia, but very, very few cases of abuse were actually pedophilia. Most involved teens, often of the age of consent, and most of those involved homosexual behavior.

I notice you are from San FranSicko. I am not the least bit surprised after reading your liberal statement above.</font>[/QUOTE]So I guess you didn't notice my next sentence, even with the bold hilighting. Me, a liberal!

How about having a pinch more courtesy than judging me based on where I was born and live, and my parents before me? Believe me, that game can go both ways, except that I don't stoop to such ****vulgar word removed*** contests.

OK, so you apparently don't want to explore the truths beneath the media hype, or else you'd acknowledge my factual point that the problem (no, let's say the evils committed) were not by and large pedophilia. It's a simple statement of fact, and I mentioned it to see if you were open to the truth of the situation. But you'd rather lecture me, without knowing a single thing about my own feelings about the matter. The next time you want to "set me straight on something," do me the simple courtesy to read what I wrote.

Well, I'll just leave you with this: I'm disgusted beyond belief by the terrible heterodoxy that has so gravely injured the Catholic Church in America. As Fr. Richard John Neuhaus writes, the problem is fidelity, fidelity, fidelity. There's a segment inside the Church that doesn't give a fig about either living or teaching the truths revealed to the Church. I'd like to see the criminals among them in prison, and the rest chased out of their positions of authority with a swift kick. And I'd like to see the cowards and the turf-protectors and the outside "experts" that played their part all sent off to an early retirement. However, the Church has been cleaning out the seminaries now for over 10 years, and as the Church (and the civil authorities) cut out the dead and decaying tissue, I see healthy pink growth, fervently orthodox, coming in from below. I even like to view myself and my family as part of that new growth, having myself come back into the Church last year in the very depths of the crisis. The Church is undergoing an extraordinary pruning, and I for one am overjoyed to see the rot and poison exposed and cut away.

[ June 03, 2003, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by MikeS:
So I guess you didn't notice my next sentence, even with the bold hilighting. Me, a liberal!

How about having a pinch more courtesy than judging me based on where I was born and live, and my parents before me? Believe me, that game can go both ways, except that I don't stoop to such contests.

Just a side note: Here in Arkansas, (Home of the pervert, Bill Clinton,) I was always raised to believe that the "P" word was the same as cursing. But, hey, if that is acceptable for the BB, who am I to argue? There is at least one conservative there in San Fransicko that I know of. His name is Michael Savage. But, for the most part, from what I have seen, the city is full of sickos, perverts, liberals, and those who don't think it is any big deal to have sex with a minor.

Well, I'll just leave you with this: I'm disgusted beyond belief by the terrible heterodoxy that has so gravely injured the Catholic Church in America. As Fr. Richard John Neuhaus writes, the problem is fidelity, fidelity, fidelity. There's a segment inside the Church that doesn't give a fig about either living or teaching the truths revealed to the Church. I'd like to see the criminals among them in prison, and the rest chased out of their positions of authority with a swift kick. And I'd like to see the cowards and the turf-protectors and the outside "experts" that played their part all sent off to an early retirement. However, the Church has been cleaning out the seminaries now for over 10 years, and as the Church (and the civil authorities) cut out the dead and decaying tissue, I see healthy pink growth, fervently orthodox, coming in from below. I even like to view myself and my family as part of that new growth, having myself come back into the Church last year in the very depths of the crisis. The Church is undergoing an extraordinary pruning, and I for one am overjoyed to see the rot and poison exposed and cut away. [/QUOTE]

Would this include the Pope? And why should they be allowed early retirement? Why should Catholics have to pay for the pensions of these perverts. I think, at very least, every one of them should be incarcerated in a mental institution for the rest of their lives.

Joseph Botwinick

[ June 03, 2003, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[Johnv]

I notice you are from San FranSicko. I am not the least bit surprised after reading your liberal statement above.
That was helpful

Let me set you straight on something, in most civilized places, whether it is consentual or not, having sex with teens is still a crime and is still pedophilia.
Actually, an adult having sex with teens is not pedophelia. Generally, it's statutory rape. The assertion is that, even if the act is with a willful minor, the law does not allow a minor to legally make such a decision.

You are very wrong here and should seek wisdom about the truth. a 13 to 17 year old kid is not mature enough to make a decision like this
That's a debatable and worthy topic suitable for another thread, but it has nothing to do with pedophilia.

 

[WPutnam]

Joseph replied"

So, should he be arrested and put in prison for obstruction of justice and covering up a crime?

The short answer is YES, but provided that the charges are actually true and proven to the extent you seem to think. I simply do not know that...

I would not only be angry. I would not only pray that they would repent. I would not only minister to the pervert and witness to him / her and hope they get saved. I would also do everything in my power to make sure that:

1. They never minister in any Church ever again.
2. They go to prison.
3. The denomination who allowed this cursed behavior be shamed as publicly as possible. I would not be a part of an evil religious society that covers up crimes such as this.

I would probably join you in all of this as well, IF I were personally aware of an individual clergyman (or anyone, actually) of being guilty as you state.

The one thing I do insist upon is the actual truth in these matters. There has been an alarming increase in claims made against innocent priests, the late Cardinal Bernardine, former archbishop of Chicago, comes to mind.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Only in California, the land of liberal perverts and sickos, would that be debatable. There is no debate here, I promise you. The law better get you before I do if you ever lay a hand on my child, consentual or not.

Joseph Botwinick

This was typed the same time as Putnam's post and was in response to John and not him.

 

[A_Christian]

I cannot help but believe that forced celebacy
is the sin at the bottom of this whole mess.

 

[Eladar]

I cannot help but believe that forced celebacy is the sin at the bottom of this whole mess.

Nobody 'forces' these people to become priests. If they don't have the gift of celebecy (which evidently they don't) they should not become priests.

 

[Trust in the Lord]

well some of them don't have the gift of celebacy either and they are still priests

 

[LaRae]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
I cannot help but believe that forced celebacy
is the sin at the bottom of this whole mess.

Talk about a red herring.

Do you guys even bother to do research before you make these kinds of comments?

In the US the VAST MAJORITY of child molestors are MARRIED white men. MARRIED.

If everyone who wasn't married was not sexually active (celibate) do you seriously think there would be a huge rise in the number of child molestors?? That's not how it works.

Perhaps a study of MARRIED non-Catholic ministers who are child molestors would be in order also.


LaRae

[ June 03, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: LaRae ]

 

[Rakka Rage]

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1656.cfm

celibacy is a gift? from who?

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1679.cfm

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Celibacy...I cannot help but think that has nothing to do with the issue. I can't help but think it has more to do with a lack of accountability among their leadership all the way to the top.

Joseph Botwinick