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how does the RCC officially View the papacy?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Embassador of Christ. The original Latin connotates represenative. Specifically an Administrative Role. Or Administrative deputy.
The main function of the Pope is to provide a visable unity to the Church and act as a pastor.
WestminsterMan
New Member
He is the servant of the servants of God.
I'm not sure I understand your question....however...
With a few exceptions when the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra, those beliefs and practices have been passed down from the apostles. So the Pope would continue that process to the next generation and on it goes since the time of Jesus.
However, You might want to ask TS or others.
WM
So when speaking on matters of doctrines/practices, he is seen as being like a modern day prophet, giving forth word of the Lord?
Do catholics see Him as head pastor over just the RCC, or over all "christian churches?"
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Its a good question. To be honest I'm not sure about his pastoral role for Christians out side of the Catholic Church. I do know that other Christian Churches are not in communion with the Catholic Church. So maybe another question could be asked to get at what you are really asking for. Because other Christians who have seperated themselves from the Catholic Church are understood to hold that they don't regard the Papacy's role in the Church therefore his Pastoral efforts are meaningless to those people. However, Catholics consider the Church to be the visible body of Christ on Earth and that the Church on Earth is considered to be the Church Militant while the Church in Heaven is the Church Triumphant. Not that there are two churches but two out of three states of the church.
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It goes back to when Jesus gives Peter the 'keys of the Kingdom'. He was referring to an Old Testament passage (Isaiah 22:20-22) when Hezekiah who was the royal heir to David's throne and King of Israel back in Isaiah's time, replaced his old Prime Minister with a new one. Everyone could tell which one of the roayal cabinet members was the new Prime Minister since he was given the 'Keys of the Kingdom'. By giving Peter the 'Keys of the Kingdom' he was entrusting the 'office' of Prime Minister of administrating His Church as His Kingdom on earth. Catholics see the keys as a symbol of Peter's office. You probably would either deny this or say, 'even if that is so, there is no biblical evidence it was passed down.' Think of this. When the founding fathers gave us the Constitution, if they had just given us a document, saying 'may the spirit of Washington guide each citizen we would have had anarchy, instead they also gave us the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches to interpret and administrate it. The Catholic Church is worldwide and over a billion strong. It needs the magisterium to guide it. You will say, 'well, He left us the Holy Spirit' and yet you have how many thousands of Protestant denominations all claiming they are being guided by the Holy Spirit in the 'Truth'.
This is why I no longer believe that Jesus just left us a book and His Spirit. I believe He also left us with the office of the papacy, Bishops and councils to administer and interpret the Holy Scriptures.
All the Apostles were given those same keys, as he Gospel itself was what jesus left them, as if one responded tot hat and received jesus, they "keys to heaven:" were indeed openned!
peter was THE Apostle to jews, paul THE Apostle to gentiles, were there 2 offical popes?
And the Lord gave us the ONLY infallible teacher of the Bible , the Holy Spirit!
Who needs fallible men to instruct us, when the very Author of it will teach us!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Ask yourself this simple question. Two people claim to be born again saved believers. Both claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit who is their infallible teacher. Both people come up with entirely different understanding of scripture passages. Which is right? How do you determine which is right? To what authority can they appeal? In your view to be honest you must admit that since both are filled with the spirit both must be correct even though their interpretation contradicts each other. Or if you choose one to be right over the other by what authority do you determine it?
Fred's Wife
Member
From Vatican II:
"The Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, namely, and as pastor of the entire Church, has full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered" (Vatican Council II-The Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents, 1975, p. 344)
"The Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, namely, and as pastor of the entire Church, has full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered" (Vatican Council II-The Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents, 1975, p. 344)
Doesn't God call jesus head over his Church though?
the Holy spirit gives us Illumination on the "essential" truths/doctrines of the faith!
He also expects us to use study tools and use good principles in Bklical studying!
He will show us that jesus is indeed coming back, but he lets us do solid research and study odf the scriptures to see which second coming model fits the texts best!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
That isn't true either. You claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit and a COC member claims to be filled with the Holy Spirit and you disagree whether baptism is essential or not all based on your authority. You hold to a calivinistic point of view free will baptist are armenianist two different essential ways of salvation! And how can the Holy Spirit be who he is and mess up interpreting the small issues from scripture as well unless you believe the Holy Spirit to be bipolar! Protestants disagree about the essentials as well. 35,000 differing opinions all claimed to be lead by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit must have Schizophrenia!
I agree and even with all these tools in use there is still severe disagreement!!!!!
To which everyone disagrees with each other!!!!
The Church Taught the return of Jesus Christ long before a baptist walked the Earth. The truth is according to your theology is that there is no authority greater than each persons ability to interpret scripture themselves!
Fred's Wife
Member
Yes, but the Roman Catholic Church is not Jesus' Church.
Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
1. The church is built by Christ ("I will build").
2. The church is built upon Christ. The Rock upon which the church is built is Christ Himself-not Peter (1 Cor. 3:11, 10:4; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6).
3. The church belongs to Christ ("I will build my church"). This means that Christ is the sole Head of the church. He has given this position to no man, not even Peter and his so-called successors.
4. The church is the only institution blessed with Christ's authority ("And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven..."). Matthew 18:18 makes it clear that this promise of authority is to the church and not just to Peter.
5. The church will be preserved through all generations ("the gates of hell shall not prevail against it").
there were baptists back during the Apostolic period, were not called that byn name, but by doctrines were... the Apostles!
WestminsterMan
New Member
I didn't say that he was a prophet; I said he is a servant.
WestminsterMan
New Member
That's a joke right?
Not according to Matthew 16:18. Jesus said it himself!
The authority given to Peter was over the church on Earth, but it is still Jesus' church. Jesus giving Peter the keys has cultural import. In those days when a king needed to leave his kingdom, he would leave the keys in the hands of his most trusted servant. With those keys the servant also held the authority to makes decisions on behalf of the king until his return. From where do you think the idea of giving someone special the "keys to the city" originates?
See the above...
True... it has been preserved through out all generations in the form of the RCC.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Another issue showing that you're having difficulting answering the questions raised about to what authority to you appeal? Ultimately, truth be know it comes down to the understanding of each person or put another way. You are your highest authority.
the highest authority is the bible itself in all things pertaining to both doctrines and practice...
the Holy Spirit will guide and lead one saved and filled by him to be able to spiritually discern it and apply it...
The "differrences" between 2 believers would HAVE to be in non essential to be held to be Christian , NOT in essentail core doctrines!
Example...
NONE can deny there will be a Second Coming, MUCH disagreement on exactly how and when that will happen!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
no document interprets itself btw. Just a logical falacy. However, now that you claim the bible to be the highest authority what do you do when two christians have differing view between them about the text?
so one is wrong the other is right. How do you know which is which? The one you agree with? then again you place yourself as the highest authority to interpret scripture.
Christians are always having differences on essential core doctrines.
there are some that claim he has already had a second coming like Miller of the 1800's and Herold Camping. But how core is that compared to what must one do to be saved? And that is constantly argued over by Christians.
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