Featured How human was Jesus/how much like Jesus are we

Jesus was both fully human and fully Divine.

In His incarnation, He possessed the character of God so that while it would have been possible for Him to sin, it was not in His character to do so.

Other than Jesus, all of humankind from Adam onward have a corrupted character which gives us at least a bent toward rebellion against God (sin). When we follow Jesus in discipleship, He sets us free from our captivity to sin and we are able to be faithful to Him, although there is (humanly speaking) a lifelong process of transformation that we are called to engage in which changes our habits and inclination toward sin - that is, our character.

 

Once we are saved, do we shed instantly our corrupt flesh, our culture, or Satan? No. Progressive sanctification refers to the process of overcoming the power of sin in our lives. As we grow older, and hopefully more like Christ, we continue to be mindful of our misses and trespasses. This process continues until we pass on, unless Christ returns.

This is a trustworthy statement, we all like to think everyone else is just life us, if we are liars, then everyone lies. I like to think I am more like Christ now, then in my youth. But as I have grown, I have become aware of the mountain yet to be climbed.

 

I don't think you can separate law and commandments, after all a commandment becomes law. Christ kept the law perfectly, a Christian cannot, but it don't mean he doesn't have a desire to do it. Can a Christian go through this life and not steal, not commit adultery, not murder ? yes. Can a Christian go through this life and never covet what's not his, never look upon a woman sometime in his life time and not desire her, never hate his brother by speaking evil of him or judging him or gossiping about him, I doubt it. so if you are guilty just one time of these few things I've mention you have broken the law in one point and are guilty of breaking the whole law. You have broken the spirit of the law. I am not justifying sin, I am being honest. A man that thinks he is keeping all the commandments of God is his own savior, he has no need of Christ. Man at his best state is all together vanity, Psa 39:5.

 

If I may jump in a moment Judith. Not knowing you personally or your habits, or more importantly your hobbies, I find it hard to believe sin to be a choice. Thou shall not covet is a biggie. Don't have to be coveting your neighbors wife. I like motorcycles, and there is a Harley dresser my friend has that you can bet I have coveted. Is it a sin? I've been taught yes. I'm sure Sal Mtn has seen a few hunting dogs he'd like to own. The point is, Jesus taught us even to think this is a sin. If what ever your interests may be, if you can look at anothers possesions and say you have never wished they were yours, when they are out of reach, you are a better person than I. (And you probably are anyway). The point being, I read a lot about "sin nature" on here, and now it seems its being debated.

 

If it were possible to live sinlessly and in perfection, someone would have done it in the last 2,000 years since Christ ascended. Obviously, no one has, and the obvious reason is, it is not possible.

Romans 7, NASB
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. [Emphasis added]​

Paul is not looking back to his days before knowing Christ. He speaks in present-tense. He couldn't do it either. No one but Jesus in the flesh -- who was fully God and fully man -- could do so, and yes, He did have a "special edge" at remaining sinless. He is God! And He had to remain sinless and perfect, even in the flesh, in order to be a perfect sacrifice on our behalf.

 

But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.

But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by (for) whom also he made the worlds;

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
crowned with glory and honour;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

I agree with you Judith that all sin is a choice.

That said, I think a good analogy is baseball. Is it possible for a batter to get a hit every single time he comes to bat? YES. It is POSSIBLE, but it is not likely or probable.

Likewise, it is always possible for us to obey God's commandments. We do not have to lie, we do not have to steal, etc... It is POSSIBLE for us always to do right. But just like baseball, it is not probable.

In baseball, the odds are completely against getting a hit every time you come to bat. You have the pitcher, who can really throw, and he is sending difficult pitches your way. Also, being human, it is nearly impossible to always judge the ball perfectly, or swing perfectly.

You also have the other team out there. You can really smash the ball sometimes, but the other team can make a great catch and rob you.

Likewise, we are born in a sinful world that is throwing tough temptations at us night and day. Just like baseball, our judgment is not always perfect or our reaction. And sometimes you take a pitch and it is called strike and you strike out.

This may all sound silly, but I believe it is a very accurate analogy. We could always choose to do the right thing and not sin, but we have a lot of strong temptation competing against us, and we are weak and human. So, it is almost impossible for a person to never sin.

That said, on a single incident basis, a person NEVER has to sin.

 

This passage is written from the perspective of one who does not know Christ. You can't remove this from the context of Romans 8 where this passage pivots:

8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

I agree, Romans 7 is Paul speaking from the perspective of a person still under the law. Paul says he is "sold under sin" in verse 14. Christians have been made free from sin. Paul says he is captive to the law of sin verse 23, in chapter 8 he says the Spirit has made us free from the law of sin and death.

Paul never mentions the Holy Spirit once in chapter 7.

Chapter 7 is absolutely speaking from the perspective of an unregenerate man under the law.

 

You miss the whole point of Christ, a substitute and a sacrifice for sin . Christ did not live a sinless life to be an example. Your way of seeing this is Christ whole sinless life was just an example to man that he could do the same thing. You fail to see the point that Christ, a sinless perfect person fulfilled the broken law's demand, satisfying the Father on behalf of the elect, yet take their sin's to the grave making payment in full. You also fail to see his sinless perfect life in keeping the law was put to our account. It is called the righteousness of God or the righteousness of Christ imputed, Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believeth. In verse 3 the Jews would not submit themselves to the righteousness of God. In Jer 23:6 And this is the name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. It is apparent that you hold rotten flesh in high regard when you say flesh and blood does not have to sin when the bible say's in this flesh dwelleth no good thing, Rom 7. 1 Pet 1:24 the bible say's all flesh is grass, and the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower falleth away. Is 40:6 The voice said cry, and he said what shall we cry ? All flesh is grass and all the goodness thereof is as the flower of the field.

 

I know this is the most commonly held view of the passage, but I disagree, and so do several reformed theologists. Here's one:

As Riddlebarger points out, Paul speaks in the first person in this passage, contrasting significantly with his other allegories and illustrations. He also speaks of a similar struggle faced by all Christians, including himself, in the epistle to the church at Galatia.

Galatians 5, NASB
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. ​

This is a parallel passage to Romans 7:14-25. Both are descriptions of the war going on daily within all Christians, and Paul was no more immune than you or I are. Thirdly, an unbeliever would have no knowledge of the delights of the Law, which is how the apostle begins this whole passage early in chapter seven. Therefore, he cannot be talking about Jews or unbelievers and finish the chapter in the manner he did. Paul does not therein deny he is a "slave to Christ" and instead is a "slave to sin," as many would propose if Riddlebarger's view is accepted, but rather his view that in the end, our victory is already in Christ, and our sin, though a deterrent temporally, is not our downfall eternally.

 

Calvinist's MUST interpret Romans 7 to be Paul speaking from the perspective of a saved regenerated man, otherwise this chapter clearly overthrows Total
Depravity. Paul describes himself as desiring to do the will of God and to do good. The Calvinists can have none of that, in their view only a regenerated man can desire to do good.

But Paul is clearly describing himself as a lost sinner in chapter 7. In verses 7 thru 10 he describes when he learned the law as young Jewish man. Upon learning the law he was convicted of sin and spiritually died.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul is clearly describing himself as a lost sinner who is spiritually dead here. He continues and tells us in verse 14 that he is carnal, "sold under sin"

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

No Christian is "sold under sin", we have been redeemed by Christ. In verse 23 Paul tells us he has been brought into captivity to the law of sin;

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul NEVER mentions the Holy Spirit in this chapter, not once. But immediately in chapter 8 he tells us the law of the Spirit has made him FREE from the law of sin and death;

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

To teach that Romans 7 is speaking of a regenerated born again Christian would be to teach that the Christian has absolutely no victory whatsoever over sin. Blasphemous.

 

Adam Clarke on Romans 7;

 

I'm not a Calvinist and that's fine with me. :laugh:

 

It should not be fine with you. Are we supposed to believe that a Christian with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us is "sold under sin" and brought "into captivity to the law of sin"?

So, we should just hang it all up, we are doomed to live with sin as our master until we are redeemed? Is this what the scriptures are really teaching?

Or do the scriptures teach this?

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

It should make a difference, because it is false teaching.