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Featured How is the KJV a Bible translation in any different sense than the NKJV is?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Logos1560, Jun 10, 2018.

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  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Would a clear definition and understanding of what constitutes a Bible translation be a problem for KJV-only reasoning?

    Would using the term Bible translation univocally (with one meaning) for most Bible translations while attempting to use it equivocally (with a different meaning) concerning the KJV cause misunderstanding and lead to error in concept?

    The KJV is a Bible translation in the same sense as each of the pre-1611 English Bibles of which the KJV is a revision is a Bible translation.

    The KJV is a Bible translation is the same sense that the NKJV is a Bible translation.

    The KJV is the word of God translated into English in the same way that the 1560 Geneva Bible is the word of God translated into English and in the same way that the 1982 NKJV is the word of God translated into English.
     
  2. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    But, but, but...
    Isn’t it the seventh translation of a seventh translation?​

    Rob
     
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  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    In excess of 30% of the Americans who read a Bible, read the KJV with less than 20% reading the NIV Bible and all other versions being in the single digit percentages.

    Why would the Holy Spirit guide nearly a third of all of Christ's disciples to read a multiple century old translation if it were not specially 'blessed' by God?
     
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  4. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Are you under the impression that only native English speakers/readers have Bible translations?

    "One third of all Christ's disciples" ? Really? Come back to reality.
     
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  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Are you a ‘nega-holic’?
    It seems like your glass is always 9/10 empty.
    Do you ever post a positive comment on any topic?


    It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt​
     
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  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I am merely pointing out the obvious.

    If you think one third of all Christians around the globe use the KJV, you are daft.

    Get a geography book. Note the hundreds of countries and put 1+1 together. You will come to the conclusion that there are many languages. Far more than 66% of Christians around the world do not understand English. Many who can read English as a second or third language certainly have no desire to read a book several centuries old. Get out of your backyard.

    Get it now?
     
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  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    No, the obvious you missed. I began by stating that the statistic was for Americans. While America FEELS like the whole world, it should have been obvious that the commentary applied to the same group as the statistic.

    You live to be contrary.
     
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  8. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Where does the Holy Spirit state that He directed or guided nearly a third of American believers to read the KJV?

    Does your question in effect attempt to put words in the mouth of the Holy Spirit that are not stated in the Scriptures?

    Those American believers may read the KJV because it was the translation read by their parents and read in the church they attended. Thus, the reason that they read the KJV may be tradition whether family tradition or church tradition or both.
     
  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Don't you believe John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ..."? Isn't truth found in scripture? Doesn't the Holy Spirit still guide believers? :)

    [Just to state for the record, I am not a KJV-only or even a fan of the KJV. I read the NASB and NIV. I am just trying to play along with the spirit of the OP rather than argue about 'Election vs Choice' on other topics.]
     
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  10. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    KJV-only advocates do appeal to John 16:13, but they do not show that their use of the verse to support their human KJV-only reasoning is correct. Do they interpret the verse soundly in the light of its context and in the context of the overall teachings of Scripture?

    Do the Scriptures actually teach that the Holy Spirit will guide all believers to be omniscient or all-knowing in all truth about all subjects so that every believer can claim to be an infallible "pope" under the guiding of the Spirit?
     
  11. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    John 16:13 is a reference to the Inspiration of the Apostles when writing the New Testament.
     
  12. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Careful ... Mark, Luke, Jude and James were not Apostles, should we question their Gospels, Acts and Letters? Did the inspiration of the Holy Spirit extend beyond the 11 Apostles? Is the promise of Acts 2:38-39 still valid? Do we still have the same Holy Spirit in us?
     
  13. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Within its context, no.
    Within all of scripture, I can't answer for KJV-only-ists due to ignorance of the subtle details of their position.
    However, Acts 2:38-39 says we have the same Holy Spirit in us, and God certainly CAN lead us to truth in his word through the Holy Spirit. I would even argue that he does.

    The scriptures do not even teach that the Holy Spirit will guide the Apostles into omniscience.
    Do the scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit will not guide believes, but will leave us to stumble around in ignorance? I don't think so.
     
  14. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Some KJV-only advocates appeal to John 16:13 in their seeming attempt to suggest that the guiding of the Holy Spirit into all truth would have to make the Church of England makers of the KJV in effect perfect, infallible, or omniscient in all their textual criticism decisions and translation decisions in the KJV.

    The Holy Spirit of truth can and will guide believers, but the Scriptures do not reach that that guiding makes believers infallible popes whose understanding, interpretation, or translating of the Scriptures cannot be incorrect. The guiding of the Holy Spirit would not be only for one exclusive group of Church of England scholars in 1611.
     
    #14 Logos1560, Jun 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  15. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    Sorry that was an accidental blunder, it skipped my mind that not all of the writers of the NT were Apostles. However the point is still valid, the Holy Spirit did lead the writers of the NT into all truth and they recorded that truth and wrote it down for us.
     
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, too.
    I knew EXACTLY what you meant, but couldn't resist a little teasing. I tell my daughter that I am 70% 'brat' and it is my 'spiritual gift'. :)

    I have to agree that the primary point of the verse is that the Holy Spirit will guide Jesus disciples (Apostles and others) to spread the word and record what will become part of our Bible. However, I think that there is a valid minor point to be made that the same Holy Spirit lives in us (Acts 2:38-39).
     
  17. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    OK, that argument (even if we accept it) would apply equally to every Christian translation. The Holy Spirit would have guided 'The Message' as much as he guided the KJV. Infallibility is pushing the argument a bit far. I would be willing to argue that KJV, ESV, NIV, MSG or whatever else, the errors are not great enough to prevent a reader from discovering the Gospel of Christ. The Holy Spirit has protected God's word that far ... but not infallible translation (which may not even be possible even with perfect scholars and the original autographs).
     
  18. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    A clear definition and understanding of what constitutes a Bible translation could support the view of the KJV translators that the preserved Scriptures in the original languages remain the proper standard and greater authority for the making and trying of all Bible translations.
     
  19. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The very word translation by definition, when used to refer to something that is translated from one language into another language, would require its need of a source or sources from which to be translated and on which it is therefore dependent. By reason of its proper, exact definition concerning what constitutes its being a translation, it is unequivocally or univocally termed a “translation.“ Of what is it a translation? A translation is univocally a translation as a necessary consequence of its being translated from an original language source into a different language. What is more essential to the being, state, or constitution of a translation than having source or sources from which it was translated and derived? A Bible translation cannot be something other than what it is.

    By definition and by the laws of causality and of non-contradiction, a Bible translation would be in a different state, classification, category, or order of thing or being than untranslated original language texts of Scripture. A proper definition of a term would include the whole category or class of things which it seeks to define and would exclude what does not properly come under that term or name. Edward Carnell asserted: “For it is impossible to relate two different orders of being by the same terms with exactly the same meaning to each” (Introduction to Christian Apologetics, p. 145). It should be clear that a Bible translation does not belong in the same category or classification as untranslated original language texts of Scriptures. A correct analytic statement would be true by virtue of the accurate meanings of its terms alone.

    A translation remains what it actually or truly is. Whatever is essential to its constitution as a translation is essential to it. By definition, a translation would not be the translation of nothing. By definition, a Bible translation is not the source or cause of itself. A translation cannot create itself. There could not be a translation without a source or sources from which it is translated, to which it is related, and to which it may be compared and evaluated for accuracy. A translation without any underlying texts or sources to which it is related by being translated from them would not by definition be a translation. Likewise, a translation cannot be an exact or identical duplicate of its source or sources; otherwise, by definition it would not be a translation but would instead be an identical copy or duplicate.

    A translation is not free from all causes and independent of all sources and authorities. By definition, a translation is of necessity translated from and based on something in another language or languages. Translation would be a relative term since it is connected with another object. The source of a translation would be one of its essential causes since it would be necessary for the source to exist before a translation into another language could be made from it. Therefore, the correct use and true sense of the term translation indicate that a translation is an effect or consequence that presupposes a cause or causes on which it is dependent.

    Since a translation is an effect, it cannot be the rule or authority greater than its sources or causes. Can an effect surpass the authority of its cause? Reasoning that would attempt to reverse cause and effect would be erroneous. Can the antecedent be denied and the consequent affirmed? According to the laws of causality, of good and necessary consequence, and of non-contradiction, the original language texts of Scripture cannot be and not be the authority, cause, source, and foundation for a translation at the same time and in the same respect. In his commentary on Matthew, Charles Spurgeon observed: “There is no possibility of the effect being higher and better than the cause” (p. 44). Reformer Francis Turretin asserted: “That which has a fallible foundation cannot be infallible because the effect cannot be greater in every respect than its cause” (Institutes, I, p. 39). According to the law of causality, a translation that has a beginning has a cause. A cause would need to be first in time, order, and authority over its effect. The necessity of a translation being dependent or being an effect or consequence indicates that it derives or acquires its authority from a greater authority than itself [its textual sources]. A translation that is not direct revelation from God or is not directly given by inspiration of God is not independent and underived since that translation depends on the greater authority of its antecedent underlying texts for its derived or secondary authority.
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Post #19 was actually painful to read. I have a headache.

    While a translation cannot be greater than the sum of its sources, it can be greater than some (or even any) individual source because all of the 'sources' available to us are copies with some potential flaws. By comparing many slightly flawed 'original copies' it is possible to identify most of the errors that have crept into the manuscripts and determine the most likely original words. We are at a disadvantage since the 'original autographs' are not available to us.
     
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