How long have you studied election?

I do not hold to the full systems of Calvinism or of Arminianism. I am decidedly more Arminian than 5-point Calvinists, but I do hold to perseverance of the saints.

I've studied election for probably about a year and a half, sometimes more intense than others.

 

TCAssidy is not a Calvinist? You mean the way a "5 Point Calvinist is not a Calvinist"??

 

Like TCassidy I am not a Calvinist but am a Baptist who believes in the historic Baptist doctrine of election. I have studied the Doctrines of Grace since God by his Grace saved me 40 years ago.

 

That's probably because Calvinists seem to be more interested in election, generally.

I used to be a Calvinist...I guess that explains my studies.

 

Surprised I have been the only undeclared that has studied election for over 5 years. I guess I lean more to being a Calvinist, but must confess that I'm still studying election and its ramifications. Some mysteries are left unsolved!

 

Are you saying that only Calvinists study this?

 

The problem here is, that all these Calvinists who have "studied" election for a number of years, does not seem to have done them any good, as they still hold to an unbiblical view called "Unconditional Election" I wonder if they ever ask the Holy Spirit to open their eyes to the Truth as taught in Scripture.

One Scripture is enough to show that the "U" in TULIP is wrong

Jesus says: "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3,5)

The "condition" clearly is "repent". If this is argued against, then I suggest that you try to get a better understanding on what a "condition" is in the English language.

 

For your information, I do ask the Holy Spirit to open my eyes to the truth as taught in Scripture and that is why I beleive in election.

Calvinists do not deny repentance, in fact they emphasis it a great deal. One can repenet because they are given the grace to do so. One repentence is a demonstration of ones election.

 

Classic misunderstanding of Calvinism. Unconditional refers to the basis of God's choosing and the person who repents (yes Calvinists believe that one must repent, accept the gospel, etc. in order to be saved) does so not out of anything special regarding the person herself but because God graciously chose her unconditionally--not based on her actions. I would assume that is a proper way to define "condition." Election does not equal salvation according to any Calvinist. One must accept the gospel of Jesus Christ to get saved. Election covers why one person accepts the gospel whereas another person does not.

The corollary to the red herring argument above is the one verse that says that people are not born by the will of man, but the will of God. I don't believe that that verse destroys "conditional" election, but it just shows that people can make straw man arguments very easily.

 

Icthus has once again showed just how much he does not know about the subject. That verse (Luke 13:3, 5) does not disprove unconditional election. It is a categorical statement of truth. Those who don't repent will perish. The verse doesn't even mention election. Therefore, to try to make it about election is a wrong approach.

Please keep this topic on subject of how long you have studied election. For me, I have been a Calvinist, or a particular Baptist, for almost 15 years, since I started really taking the Bible for what it says.

 

I am new to the doctirnes of Grace, I have been studying them for about a year, and what a wonderful journey it has been as God has magnified Himself in my life.

 

Repentance:

Arminian Approach: having been enabled by the Holy Spirit to choose to come to Christ, the individual repents and trusts in Christ.

The condition of election? the CHOICE

Why is it conditional? It preceded election (not in a chronological sense). God elected the individual on the basis of his foreknowledge that the individual would choose to come to Christ.

The Calvinist Approach:

God works in the individual to effect repentance and faith, both of which did not occur because of a choice, only because of the work of God.

The condition of election? None. The individual did nothing whatsoever. God chose to elect without foreknowledge of any future "decision."

Why is it unconditional? The election preceded the action. The only reason the individual repented and came to faith was the previous election of God.

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I hope this was fair to both sides. If not, feel free to correct me.

 

Perhaps we can take that to another thread, Stefan. Let's not get this one off track. Feel free to start another thread with repentance as the topic.

 

The doctrine of Election is flawed.

If God elects some and not all, then God is giving to some that which is boastable! If God revealed to me that I am elected. You'd better believe that as a human I would say to others that I have something that you don't! Clearly a boastable thing.

It is not until we are actually fully repentant of Sin, that we have any control over sin...even over boasting. I don't know about you, but I still struggle with sin daily! And if any of you are tempted to say you don't, I would remind you of what Paul said, "if you say you have no sin, you make God a liar".

Therefore, if God gives you something that God has not given me, then You have something to boast about!

God is not a respecter of man, so I really do not see in scripture where God would give average John Doe something that could lead him into sinning, by revealing to him that he is elect! Sure as anything John Doe will boast about it and that would be sin.

 

Regarding the natural man, the Scriptures declare, there is none that seeketh after the Lord.

Romans 3:11 (KJV) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

First comes new life, then after seeking. The boast is in the Lord.

Psalms 34:1 (KJV) <<A Psalm of David, when he changed his behaviour before Abimelech; who drove him away, and he departed.>> I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth.
2 My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.
3 O magnify the LORD with me, and let us exalt his name together.
4 I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.

 

That's precisely why you cannot boast ... You didn't do anything to get it. It is solely of God. You have it exactly backwards.

This is precisely why it has to be unconditional election. If God elected people who chose him, then he would be respecting people because of their choices. That is incompatible with the biblical teaching about God.

 

Pastor Larry,

I thought Stefan perfectly illustrated what Unconditional Ellection means: that which has no human condition attached.