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Featured How much did the Reformation reform?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ntchristian, Jan 29, 2020.

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  1. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    Growing up in Eastern Orthodoxy, where I lived, we were in the minority. We were surrounded by Roman Catholicism. There were not that many Protestant churches around. So I came to know a lot about the Roman Catholic Church and how it differed from us. But I did not know a lot about Protestantism until I engaged in an in-depth study of it. I recognized how the Reformation changed Protestant beliefs in contrast to the RCC which it came out of. In that sense, Protestantism was indeed a rebellion from and reformation from Roman Catholicism, but not from Eastern Orthodoxy since the Protestant reformers did not come out of Orthodoxy.

    Now what I'm about to say may shock many of you and find you in disbelief or denial of it, but this is what I found. Protestantism, while seeking to return to more Biblical/ancient doctrines and practices, still held and holds to basic premises that Roman Catholicism holds. Protestantism, just like Roman Catholicism, holds to an Augustinian soteriology, unlike Orthodoxy. Further, Protestant atonement theories are just expansions of Roman Catholic atonement theory, which are neither ancient nor Biblical, and neither is Augustinian soteriology.

    So, in basic ideas of salvation, both Roman Catholic and Protestant (including Baptist) views are akin. These are different from Orthodoxy. Another specific difference is in the doctrine of justification. I will include a link to an article which is good at highlighting these differing views: Justification (theology) - Wikipedia

    One big problem I am having in converting to Protestantism, and Baptists, is in this area of soteriology. In all my studies, I did find something astonishing, and I found it almost by accident. In reading about the Reformation, I stumbled on the Radical Reformation, and in those radicals I found a soteriology very close in some important aspects to Orthodox soteriology. And yet the Radical Reformers in other aspects were seemingly almost totally opposite to Orthodoxy. This has led me to study of the offspring of the Radical Refomers such as the Mennonites, Brethren, and Quakers (Friends).

    All of this is fascinating and intriguing to me. I'll be glad to see comments from all who care to respond to my thread. I hope we can have a good discussion of this. I am glad to have found this forum. Your comments and responses are really making me think.
     
    #1 ntchristian, Jan 29, 2020
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Actually, the reformers did indeed unstand the Sotierology of the scriptures, especially Pauline Justification, my biggest complaints with them would be did not reformed enough their views on the sacraments and eschatology!
     
    #2 Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020
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  3. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    RCC - water baptism = salvation, rebirth, being born-again. Even baptism with water while the child is in the womb!

    Baptist - believers baptism to show-forth the result of being born-again through repentance and accepting Jesus as savior.

    Eastern Orthodoxy - ???
     
    #3 Wesley Briggman, Jan 29, 2020
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do not believe that they hold to saved by Grace alone thru faith alone.
     
    #4 Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020
  5. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    Salvation by faith alone was the "theological novum" invented by the progenitors of the various Protestant religions.


    James 2:24 ---> "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
     
    #5 Walpole, Jan 29, 2020
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Both the Greek and Roan Church really misunderstand what James meant there "Justified by works"
    Calvin had this right, as he saw that one was indeed saved by Grace alone thru faith alone, but real saving faith is not alone, as salvation will produce in the redeemed now good works!
     
    #6 Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020
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  7. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    FYI, the Orthodox Church condemned both the Lutherans and Calvinists at the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672 A.D.
     
    #7 Walpole, Jan 29, 2020
  8. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    James 2:24 ---> "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."


    Does Scripture (above) say faith alone is salvific? Yes or no?

    If you believe the answer is yes, faith alone is salvific, then you must believe a dead faith, that is one apart from ANY works, is a salvific one. This again would contradict the explicit words of Scriptures.

    James 2:26 ---> "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead."
     
    #8 Walpole, Jan 29, 2020
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How about the Church of Rome?
     
    #9 Yeshua1, Jan 29, 2020
  10. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Your conclusion is wrong. Paul lays it out in Ephesians 2:8-10.
    By Grace you are saved.
    Through faith, that comes not from yourself, but is God's gift
    That you will carry out the works God has ordained for you.
    James agrees with this when he argues against people who claim to have faith, but no works are evident. Therefore he states that faith, without works is dead, which Paul says in Ephesians 2:1 when he says the unsaved are dead in their trespasses and sins. No dead man can produce faith. God must make them alive and give them faith that, by the nature of the gift, produces good works.

    This is elementary stuff, yet you seem to stumble over it and imagine you are the cause of faith and good works, which is clearly contrary to scripture.
     
    #10 Particular, Jan 29, 2020
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  11. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    If you believe that Luther thought James taught the same as Paul on this, then why did he wish that James was not included in the NT?
     
    #11 ntchristian, Jan 29, 2020
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  12. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Ask Luther.

    I see the congruity of the scriptures and both Paul and James are expressing God's work in the gift of faith.
     
    #12 Particular, Jan 29, 2020
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  13. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    But James says, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." Taken literally, that denies justification by faith alone, does it not?
     
    #13 ntchristian, Jan 29, 2020
  14. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    John Piper says it well.
    https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/does-james-contradict-paul
     
    #14 Particular, Jan 29, 2020
  15. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry...I didn't realize we were still playing "Who can build the biggest straw man?"

    I guess it's my turn so here I go...

    ---> This is elementary stuff, yet you seem to stumble over it and imagine you and Baal are the cause of faith and good works, which is clearly contrary to Scripture.

    Your turn. This is so much fun!
     
    #15 Walpole, Jan 30, 2020
  16. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    My goodness you have no clue. I specifically answered and because you have no reply you claim the nebulous strawman.
     
    #16 Particular, Jan 30, 2020
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That sort of theology is what spawned the reformation!
     
    #17 Yeshua1, Jan 30, 2020
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    he misunderstand what Paul and James were teaching?
     
    #18 Yeshua1, Jan 30, 2020
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, for Paul address Justification from [menbers idea of] God's perspective, and James describes what that looks like in practical terms in our lives!
     
    #19 Yeshua1, Jan 30, 2020
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  20. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    I appreciate all the excellent comments, but it still seems to me that Paul and James disagree. In interpreting scripture, I tend to read things literally and first take the literal sense of a passage. I have also observed that different denominations interpret passages literally when it suits their doctrines and explain away the literal rendering when it doesn't. All denominations do this.
     
    #20 ntchristian, Jan 30, 2020
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