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How much will you contrive?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Mar 4, 2005.

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  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim New Member

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    Read carefully:

    For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?.... Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.... Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.... For we share in Christ, only if we hold our first confidence firm to the end.... And to whom did he swear that they should never enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.... Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have fallen short of it.... Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience... For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.... For if WE go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."... Therefore, do not throw away your confidence... Pursue peace with all men, and holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears....

    The Book of Hebrews.

    Take off your Calvinist glasses, read this book from beginning to end and see what it says. These Hebrews were being persecuted and wished to return to the Law to avoid this suffering. The entire letter is a dire warning for these born again Christian Jews to suffer with Christ and not to turn back to the Law and forfeit their inheritance unto rejection falling short of salvation when Jesus comes again. If this cannot occur the writer is deceiving them with false warnings.

    Here is WHO the writer was warning:

    Therefore, BRETHREN, since WE have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

    Stop contriving and be honest with what it says.

    [ March 04, 2005, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Ben Elohim ]
     
    #1 Ben Elohim, Mar 4, 2005
  2. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Once again, you seem to be confusing OSAS with the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of the saints. The Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of the saints teaches that no one who turns back will inherit anything. Calvinists just believe that God preserves those who are truly elect, so that they don't turn back. They are kept from turning back by heeding the warnings in the word through the work of the Holy Spirit. So a Calvinist would not disagree substantially with what you've posted here.
     
    #2 russell55, Mar 4, 2005
  3. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim New Member

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    I am not confusing anything.

    Do you, as a Calvinist, believe that a born again believer can fall short of salvation when Jesus comes and not be saved on that day (see Heb 9:28)? YES or NO?

    "Let your Yes be Yes and your No be No." - Jesus Christ

    And no, there is no false dilemma in the question so there is no room for that little game either.
     
    #3 Ben Elohim, Mar 4, 2005
  4. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    A person who has been born from above will be preserved by God. God preserves those he is saving, and people are saved in the end because they persevere.

    And before you complain that I didn't answer your question yes or no, let me ask you a question on the same order as the one you asked me: Does God fail to save any of those he wants to save? Yes or no?
     
    #4 russell55, Mar 4, 2005
  5. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Russel;
    It isn't God that fails us, it is we who fail Him.
    God doesn't save anyone who has no faith because His saving grace comes through faith. Eph 2:8
    :D
    May the light of Christ shine On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #5 ILUVLIGHT, Mar 4, 2005
  6. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    And you made my point exactly. Sometimes it's impossible to answer a question with simply a yes or a no because the question itself makes assumptions that you don't agree with.

    A lot of Ben's questions are like that. He wants a yes or no answer, and then insists someone is dodging the question when they don't answer it with a yes or no, when, in reality, they can't answer yes or no because they don't agree with the basic assumption behind the question.

    It's the same for you with my question. My question assumes that it is God alone who saves, so that if someone he planned to save wasn't actually saved, then it would be a failure on God's part. Given my assumption, my question ought to be able to be answered with a yes or no. But since you don't agree with my basic assumption, you can't answer my question with a yes or a no.

    It would be silly of me to then accuse you of dodging my question, wouldn't it? You answered it, but you had to answer it on your terms, not on mine, because you come from a different perspective on the basic assumption.

    BTW, I agree with you that God doesn't save anyone who has no faith, because salvation comes through faith. I just believe that God works saving faith in everyone he plans to save.
     
    #6 russell55, Mar 4, 2005
  7. rc

    rc New Member

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    Boy I hope you guys never wear a "Jesus Saves" button or t-shirt.... I hope you wear "Faith Saves" button...

    2 Timothy 1:8-9 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of GOD; 9 WHO hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
     
    #7 rc, Mar 4, 2005
  8. Kiffen

    Kiffen Member

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    Well said, Yea, kinda like have Faith in Faith! :D
     
    #8 Kiffen, Mar 4, 2005
  9. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim New Member

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    A person who has been born from above will be preserved by God. God preserves those he is saving, and people are saved in the end because they persevere.

    And before you complain that I didn't answer your question yes or no, let me ask you a question on the same order as the one you asked me: Does God fail to save any of those he wants to save? Yes or no?     </font>[/QUOTE]NO, God does not fail to save who he wants to save because He wants to save those who want to be saved.

    I will take your answer as a YES for the moment.

    And I see you have insinuated here in this thread that you don't like the presumption in the question as I knew you would. This is a common Calvinist ploy and it is quite dishonest if indeed there is no false premise in the first place. So, what presumption do you not like in the question my friend? If you do not identify an alleged false premise in a question then you have no excuse for not answering a Yes or No question.

    Now can you answer YES or NO or will you not confess your beliefs in the open?

    And as for the rest of you, you just might want to modify one of your favorite Calvinist terms, "SAVING faith."
     
    #9 Ben Elohim, Mar 4, 2005
  10. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Would either of you admit that the other might be right about some things? There are more than two ways to reconcile the free will of man with the sovereignty of God, as well as the free gift of salvation by grace with reward according to works.
     
    #10 James_Newman, Mar 5, 2005
  11. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    One assumption is that Hebrews is written to a group wherein everyone is born again. There is a failure to see Hebrews as a book written under special circumstances--to Jewish people transitioning from living under one covenant to another.

    Another assumption is that those who are born again are left to their own devices to work perseverence on their own.

    You would be wrong.

    Huh? Did you read my answer? God preserves those he is saving. Those God is working in are preserved by him. They perservere. The warnings are effective in them because the Spirit works within them so that they heed them.

    Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.

    No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6)

    Those that the Father is working in will have eternal life. Those the Father draws will be raised on the last day.

    Those who don't persevere (like the disciples who left Jesus at the end of John 6--the ones Jesus says hadn't believed because it hadn't been given them by the Father) won't be raised on the last day; but everyone the Father is drawing perseveres and is raised.
     
    #11 russell55, Mar 5, 2005
  12. rc

    rc New Member

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    Seems easy to me Russell,
    God foreloves, God predestinates, God calls, God justifies, God glorifies. Oh that beautiful chain, like all of His promises can't be broken!
     
    #12 rc, Mar 5, 2005
  13. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    rc;
    Of course you can prove that all his plans are promises.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #13 ILUVLIGHT, Mar 25, 2005
  14. LaymansTermsPlease

    LaymansTermsPlease Member

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    Faith does save, but only because Jesus died for our sins and paid our debt... AND only because God chooses to credit our faith in what Christ did as righteousness.

    Shouldn't wear the "Faith Saves" button without the "Jesus Saves" button.

    No matter how many times Calvinists drag out the old "Faith is a work" idea, the Bible clearly tells us that faith is NOT a work. Notice the phrase in the verses below "does not work, but believes"

    Jesus did all the "work", I just have faith and believe. That DOESN'T mean (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say) [​IMG] that I'm "saving myself" with faith either.

    My faith in Christ wouldn't save me if He hadn't gave His life for man's sin.

    I could believe that Joseph Smith was divine and would save me, but that wouldn't get me anywhere.


    Romans 4:1-4
    What then shall we say that Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh, has discovered regarding this matter? For if Abraham was declared righteous by the works of the law, he has something to boast about—but not before God. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation. But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.
     
    #14 LaymansTermsPlease, Mar 27, 2005
  15. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello LaymansTermsPlease nice to meet you.
    JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
    JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
    Jesus says it is a work. How do you reconcile this with, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.?

    johnp.
     
    #15 johnp., Mar 27, 2005
  16. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    #16 johnp., Mar 27, 2005
  17. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Russell55 wrote,
    So then Russell55, According to Calvinism, Man truly does have something to do in his own salvation, he must "heed the warnings". Isn't that "Man intervening" in God's salvation of man! Isn't that the same thing as man must have faith that is his own unique faith in God? Without faith in God why would man heed the warnings? Without faith in God, man has nothing to look forward to. Isn't that the same! Man does play a part in man's salvation! Amazing!

    I guess that's just another False doctrine mortally wounded!
     
    #17 Wes Outwest, Mar 27, 2005
  18. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
    JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
    Jesus says it is a work. How do you reconcile this with, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.?

    johnp.     </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus says it is a work, but Jesus also says it is the work of God the father. It is the Father's work that we believe in the one He sent to us. It is not a work that we do to believe, there is no energy expended in believing in Jesus. You sit and listen to the word of God, then in your own mind all of what you heard becomes the basis for your belief, and you either accept it or reject it. It's kind of like eating in a restaurant. You sit, a waitperson comes to your table and you order what you want, then just like the one who took your order, you wait. Eventually your order is brought to you fully prepared for you. You look at it, and you have the decision to make which is accept or reject. if you reject it, it will be prepared for you again, if you accept it you eat it.

    God has prepared everything for you, it is now up to you to believe or not believe. What work did or do you do to believe? NONE WHATEVER!
     
    #18 Wes Outwest, Mar 27, 2005
  19. LaymansTermsPlease

    LaymansTermsPlease Member

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    JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
    JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
    Jesus says it is a work. How do you reconcile this with, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.?

    johnp.     </font>[/QUOTE]Hey, nice to meet you too. I haven't forgotten this one, just mulling it over in my spare time which has been pretty sparse lately.

    I wish the Holy Spirit had brought that John passage to mind when I posted about the Romans. I know I've read that John passage in the last 6 months or so.

    This is why I so rarely post, and am usually a lurker. [​IMG] My nick describes me...just a Layman trying to understand like everyone else.

    Gotta remember to at least do an elementary school concordance proof-text-omatic search before posting [​IMG]

    Anyways, the two passages are seemingly contradictory, but of course they are NOT since they're both the Word of God.

    I'll be thinking, reading, and praying, if I come up with anything, I'll let you know. Again, not ignoring or avoiding tough questions, they're just, well....tough [​IMG]
     
    #19 LaymansTermsPlease, Apr 3, 2005
  20. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK <img src =/6181.jpg>

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    JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
    JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
    Jesus says it is a work. How do you reconcile this with, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.?

    johnp.     </font>[/QUOTE]Hey, nice to meet you too. I haven't forgotten this one, just mulling it over in my spare time which has been pretty sparse lately.

    I wish the Holy Spirit had brought that John passage to mind when I posted about the Romans. I know I've read that John passage in the last 6 months or so.

    This is why I so rarely post, and am usually a lurker. [​IMG] My nick describes me...just a Layman trying to understand like everyone else.

    Gotta remember to at least do an elementary school concordance proof-text-omatic search before posting [​IMG]

    Anyways, the two passages are seemingly contradictory, but of course they are NOT since they're both the Word of God.

    I'll be thinking, reading, and praying, if I come up with anything, I'll let you know. Again, not ignoring or avoiding tough questions, they're just, well....tough [​IMG]     </font>[/QUOTE]Laymans your answer is nice to see. Makes a change to see someone being honest and willing to go away and learn, while displaying a great attitude. May we all learn from this example.
     
    #20 Rich_UK, Apr 4, 2005
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