How Some Premils create Mortal Christians

You missed 98% of the argument.
Nobody has a valid position based on ONE
and only one verse. That is just a sample
verse.

BTW, that sample verse also shows that
the gathering in verse 31 cannot possibly
refer to the postribulation rapture
but to a pretribulation rapture. For
if the Second Coming in Power and Glory is
the same 24-hour day as the rapture/resurrection,
then not all will morn -- there will be
millions of people that will be
glad to see Jesus showing up: He is
coming to get them.

 

They are part of the population of the physical Millinnial Kingdom of Jesus
on the physical earth where a physical Jesus
rules on a physical throne of David.

I note that at no time 33AD-2003AD has
a physical Jesus ruled on a physical
throne of David in a physical Jerusalem
over some physical Jews (Israeli) --
so the millinnial kingdom of Jesus has
not happened, has not started.
The physical millinnial kingdom of Jesus
is yet to be: after the pretibulation
rapture/resurrection/transformation/gathering,
after the tribulation peiod, after the
glorious Second Advent of our Blessed
Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus. Amem?

 

In your eschatological theory, why
does God drag 300s Million persons into
the Tribulation Period where they become
fodder for the antichrist gang of killers
-- why does God do that to save maybe
10,000,000 physical Jewish Israelis?

 

DeafPosttrib: "Then, the question is, who are God's elect?"

God has two elect:
1. During the Church age (Gentile age)
- church age born-again Christian elect saints
2. During the Tribulation period:
- Jewish Israeli elect saints

According to 1 Corinthians 10:32
there are three groups of people in God's eyes:

1. Jews
2. Gentiles
3. Church

The Church in this present evil age (AKA: Gentile age)
is made up mostly of gentiles with a few messianic Jews
-- all will fall away from this world into the arms
of Jesus at the pretribulation rapture. This is
a plan of God to save at least one generation of Physical
Jews (during the Tribulation period).
During the Tribulation period many Jews will be saved
by believing that Jesus is their Messiah.
These are the Jewish Israeli elect saints

In the Millennial Kingdom will be these three groups:

1. Jews
- - Jewish Israeli elect saints
2. Gentiles
-lost gentiles who did NOT take the mark of the beast
3. Church
- church age born-again Christian elect saints
(only a few, less than 1,000,000 chosen for special
service as judges, priests, and kings)

 

First, there is no tribulation period. Second, God doesn't drag anyone into the great tribulation. The great tribulation occurs because the restrainer is removed, which allows the man of sin to persecute others, primarily Israel.

In case you haven't noticed, there have been killers and people persecuting Christians for almost 2000 years and persecuting Jews far longer. (Worse, there have been people who call themselves Christians who persecute others, often Jews.) Christians have been stoned, dismembered, shot, burned at the stake, crucified upside down, and have endured atrocities. There's nothing different about that than what happens during the great tribulation, except perhaps a matter of degree, and a matter of focus.

In case you haven't noticed, God has often (if not always) used the persecution of His own to glorify Himself with their faith and endurance. There's nothing different about that than what will happen during the great tribulation. That's why scripture exhorts the saints to have patience and endurance during the great tribulation - as a testimony of our faith.

Jesus returns immediately after the great tribulation to rescue those who are persecuted, and to pour out His vengeance on those who persecuted the saints. That's what we are spared. It makes perfect sense to leave us on earth to be a testimony for Him when there is persucution. It makes no sense to leave us on earth when He pours out His wrath on those who hate Him and persecute us.

 

Npetreley: "First, there is no tribulation period."

Tell it to the boss:

Matthew 24:21-22 (nKJV):

For then there will be great tribulation,
such as has not been since the beginning of
the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh
would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

People who make the great tribulation period to be
the whole of history from 33AD to 2003AD belittle the meaning
of the phrase "great tribulation" and call Jesus a liar.

Npetreley: "In case you haven't noticed, there have been killers
and people persecuting Christians for almost 2000 years
and persecuting Jews far longer."

My generic "five tribualtions" notes that.

Npetreley: "There's nothing different about that than what happens
during the great tribulation, except perhaps a matter of degree
, and a matter of focus."

Alright, here is a change in focus:
Some 40-60 million Christains have been martyred.
All the Christians will be gone at the first sound
of the last trumpet soundind the start of the tribualtion period.
Left will be some 10 million Jews and maybe 5,500 Million people
including false Christians (1,500 Million) and others (4,000 Million).
about 1/3 of these will be slain at the sound of the 6th trumpet
(2,000 million). Yep, change of degree, big time.

 

And why does one Christian wish to belittle another Christian with a comment like that and accuse them of calling Jesus a liar? To disagree over eschatology does not mean that one is calling Jesus a liar.

That is one of my main problems with premillennialists, especially dispensational ones, in that they accuse, for practical purposes, those that disagree with them of being evil.

What if you are wrong, Ed? If you are wrong does that mean you are calling Jesus a liar?

 

the two tribulations are different in scope and intensity.

the first tribulation is a trial of faith focusing on conquering the works of the flesh. it occurs between the child and young man stage. Jesus is refining your faith as silver.

this can coincide with the tabernacle sanctification and the capability of entering into the first veil of the sanctuary. those who accomplish this level of undertanding can profess Jesus as their Lord.

the second tribulation is called the great tribulation and it concerns trying your faith with the focus of comprehending the character and nature of Jesus. accomplishing this faith level is accompanied with the Proclamation that Jesus is God. and his nature is unconditional love for ALL.

this tribulation can coincide again with the tabernacle and the veil of the Holy of holies.
where man comes face to face with God himself. this tribulation is between the young man nnd the father stage. in this stage your comprehension of faith is referred to as being refined as Gold.

this is not in anyway associated with eschatology.
this occurs in the believers life as they progress through the process of Sanctification.

Me2

 

I have never seen a discussion of this topic that I could understand either side That is my fault.

I am currently involved in a discussion on another forum and I asked the question there that I will ask here. It is a simple question.

First let me say to you that I am premilennial and dispensationalist.

The argument against this view on the other forum that was thought to corner me and force my concession was that Christ is now on His throne, the church is the kingdom. This argument is supported from:

The argument continues to say then the throne of David [the physical throne set in Jerusalem] was at the first the throne of Christ and was given to David.

Now let's go to Luke 1.32:

My questions:
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• Who shall be great?</font>
• Whose throne is He given?</font>
• When was David's throne in Heaven?</font>

Ok, that is three questions, but they can be combined into one.

Seeking an answer.

Bro. Dallas

 

I think you already know that I'm not saying that the great tribulation started at 33AD. What I said was that the saints have always suffered tribulation and of the most horrible kinds, and that tribulation actually glorifies God. So it makes no sense to think that we will be spared the great tribulation, since the same principles apply to both the great tribulation and previous tribluation. That's why it should come as no surprise to you that God leaves His elect on earth through the great tribulation.

Well put. They are your generic five tribulations. All you've presented so far is speculation based on snippets of scripture. Let me know when you get a plain statement that there are five tribulations inserted into scripture. Get those insertions accepted as canon, and then I'll consider believing they're true.

 

I guess everybody is waiting to see?

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

------------------------------------
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the
Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto
him the throne of his father David:
----------------------------------------------

My questions:
Who shall be great?"
Jesus, the Messiah.

Frogman: "Whose throne is He given?"
The physical throne of the physical King David
(he ruled Israel about 1000BC).

Frogman: "When was David's throne in Heaven?"

/ed checks with Mayflower /
Haven't found a verse about it yet.

During the physical Millennial Kingdom of Jesus,
the Christ, Jesus will physically rule
a physcial world from
a physical throne of David in a Physical Jerusalem.

 

DeafPosttrib: "You claim, there are 5 different types of tribulation.

The Bible does not support your logical."

That should be (s/b): The Bible does not support your logic."

Interesting You put me in a damned damed if you do,
damned if you don't situation. If i do not give my supporting
Bible documentation; then you say it is not logical.
If i give my supporting Bible documentation; then you
say it is not simple.

Sorry, I'm not going to play your game.
But i'm still the old easy ed: which 1 of the 2 would
you rather me to do for you?
See, there is no reason to try to please someone who
cannot ever be pleased. God has made me the steward of
my time, and i can't be wasting it all on someone who
wants to play "damned if/damned if not" games.

 

-------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
belittle the meaning of the phrase
"great tribulation" and call Jesus a liar.
------------------------------------

KenH: "And why does one Christian wish to belittle another
Christian with a comment like that and accuse them
of calling Jesus a liar? To disagree over eschatology
does not mean that one is calling Jesus a liar."

1. Please quote my whole sentence OR don't misquote
me by ommission. Thank you.

Here is what i said:
//People who make the great tribulation period to be
the whole of history from 33AD to 2003AD belittle the meaning
of the phrase "great tribulation" and call Jesus a liar.//

I guess, because two people didn't seem to understand this,
that i'd better reword:

People (unlike those posting on this topic, like Catholics and
Mormons) who make the great tribulation period to be
the whole of history from 33AD to 2003AD, belittle the meaning
of the phrase "great tribulation" and call Jesus a liar.

2. I'm probably so liberal and tolerant that i'll get
kicked off the BB, but i have my limit.
I can understand how some one can read Matthew 24:28-31
and believe the gathering is AFTER the Great Tribulation
Period -- in error of ignoring context, but not heresy.
I understand how people posting on this topic
comprehend a difference between "tribulation" and
the "great tribulation" of Matthe 24:21. Skipping out
on the 70th week of Daniel - unfortunate but not heresy.

But to deny the saying of Jesus in Matthew 24:21-33
that there will be a time of great tribulation
unlike any in the world up to that time or after that
time -- to deny it by saying it is all the possible time
from 33AD to 2003 -- sorry, that is heresy, blasphemy,
or something more than mere divergence of opinion.