Human Inability

God, speaking though the Bible votes for "Human Ability." If humans were totally depraved the Lord would not have requested that we turn to Him and believe. John 6:35 says, ' . . . he who comes to Me shall never hunger . . . ' Also, only two verses later He says, ' . . . and he who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out.' The Apostle John strikes out with vengeance against "human inability." Jesus speaking through the youngest apostle said, 'And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life' [John 5:40]. It's about time to give up on the old, erring, mantra.

 

True. But this issue is not that simple. Those verses themselves don't indicate where we obtain the ability to turn to God/Christ. The Bible also teaches that God predetermines who will be saved.

[ September 29, 2002, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: jpbrooks ]

 

Then why does God say "you cannot come" unless it is given to you? That is a word of ability. The same is true in Rom 8 where the natural man "cannot" please God, he is "unable" to do so. It is clear that God votes on the side of human inability, at least according to what he directly says in his word. What you have done is ignore the direct statements mentioned above in favor of a logical argument that is a non sequiter. A command or invitation does not always necessitate the ability to carry it out. Consider Matt 5:44 where we are told to "be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." Christ gave a command he knew man was incapable of carrying out.

 

You forgot context, and to quote in entirety. John 6:37 plainly states, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and he who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out."

St. John the Apostle strikes out with a vengeance against "human ability" in the same chapter (John 6) when he records these words of our Lord Jesus Christ:

v. 44 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him..."

v. 65 - "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has enabled him."

So much for human ability.

Rev. G

 

"But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." [Jn. 6:36, 37]

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." [Jn. 6:44, 45]

"But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." [Jn. 6:64, 65]

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." [Jn. 10:26]

The Scriptures clearly teach the inability of the natural man to come to Jesus Christ and believe on His name apart from the grace of God.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" [Eph. 2:1]

quicken - to make alive; to arouse or incite to spiritual action.

The natural man is "dead in trespasses and sins" and has neither the ability nor desire to seek God.

"The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts." [Ps. 10:4]

"Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah." [Ps. 39:5]

When will you Arminians at last receive the truth of the Holy Scriptures???

 

If the word "quicken" means to arouse or incite to spiritual action, can the natural man perform any spiritual action before he is quickened by the power of God?

 

Being ' . . . perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect' does not mean to be without fault, weakness, or occasionally sin. I believe it is a call to be mature in Christ in Biblical knowledge, Christian manner of life and a person who has a sincere love for not only the brethren but the lost.

 

Relevance to the issue?

 

Really? It says "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." There is certainly no fault, weakness, or occasional sin in His maturity.

Being exactly like our Father is a goal we will not be able to attain in this life, and yet we are called to be like Him.

 

Really? It says "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." There is certainly no fault, weakness, or occasional sin in His maturity.

Being exactly like our Father is a goal we will not be able to attain in this life, and yet we are called to be like Him.</font>[/QUOTE]As the Son is in the Father, and we in Christ, positionally, we are perfect in Christ. None but the righteous shall see God..

Hoping somebody will bite on those last comments...

By God's own admission, Job did it.

Job 1:1
1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. (KJV)

[ September 30, 2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

Context! Context! Context! The Scriptures do indeed teach us that we are "perfect" as far as our position goes because of what Christ has accomplished on our behalf - both obeying for us and dying to take away our transgressions. However, does that mean that we are able to be without sin in this life, that is, practically? No. Job was "perfect" in that he was "mature," not sinless. If you think he was, then continue to read the book ("I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.").

Rev. G

 

Then why does God say "you cannot come" unless it is given to you? That is a word of ability. The same is true in Rom 8 where the natural man "cannot" please God, he is "unable" to do so. It is clear that God votes on the side of human inability, at least according to what he directly says in his word. What you have done is ignore the direct statements mentioned above in favor of a logical argument that is a non sequiter. A command or invitation does not always necessitate the ability to carry it out. Consider Matt 5:44 where we are told to "be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." Christ gave a command he knew man was incapable of carrying out.</font>[/QUOTE]The context of Romans 8 is to the Saved, exorting the need to remain obedient after salvation (Rom 8:1) That the lost cannot obey does not completely define at which point one is saved. If no one can come "except the Sprirt draw him" doesn't it appear logical that the conviction God gives as a result of man's the word of God, and the ministry of the Holy Ghost would be enough to empower the the spiritually dead man to respond to the invitation of God to receive life? This in no way removes the ability to "forordain" since hew first "forknew" who would make the decision and who would not. Thus, the unrepentant sinner is responsible for his fuutre in a Christless eternity, as God is "not willing that any shouldperish, but that all should come to repentence".

 

Chappie the Romans 8 quote above is in the contrast between those who "walk by the spirit" and those whose minds are "Set on the flesh". The total depravity of man in is sinful nature - is shown to be absolute. Not only "will' sinful man (and that means All- ) not choose to obey God - but he "can not".

However God provides the "ALL" solution - "I will Draw" - supernaturally draw - "ALL MEN" unot ME.

The "Solution" is as comprehensive as the problem - as already established in Romans 5 prior to the review of that same point in Romans 8.

It is only because calvinists deny both the "ALL" of Romans 5 and the "ALL" of John 12:32 that they find themselves in a position to "use" the depravity of man in Romans 8 as a tool to deprive the "MANY" of Matt 7 of the Gospel.

The problem is not the "ALL" encompassing scope of the problem (the depravity) - the problem is when they deny the "ALL" encompassing Gospel solution of Romans 5, 2Cor 5 (new creation) and John 12:32 - supernaturally "Drawing ALL MEN"

Ken has argued that Arminians can not make the argument above for total depravity - (or as he calls them "non-Calvinists").

Thoughts?

In Christ,

Bob

 

The verse 'no one can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him' was not a directive given by Father Calvin to allow God to pick and choose His elect and non-elect.

God is simply trying to fortify the truth that it is only God the Father and the Holy Spirit who points men and women to Jesus Christ as being the only true Savior. Without the ministry of the Father and the Spirit no one would come to Jesus. You so well know, that human beings are alienated from God and only His ministry can speak to the human heart. We indeed, as sinners, were depraved so much so that only God the Father and the Spirit can move the human heart toward the Cross and Christ Himself.

No intellectual abilities, no simple witness to the Gospel of the Cross, no human manipulation can save the soul. Only the ministry to God the Father and the Spirit can effectually lead a person to Christ.