Human Natural Ability Can Comprehend Some things of the Spirit of God.

[Van]

1 Corinthians 2:14 says natural people cannot understand "the things" of the Spirit of God, but does not say whether this refers to some or all the things of the Spirit of God. But from the context, 1 Corinthians 3:1, we see that Paul spoke to un-spiritual people using Spiritual Milk, thus clearly teaching natural people can understand the spiritual milk things of the Spirit of God.

Scripture says God's word (the Law) acts as an escort of the lost (natural people) to Christ, again clearly teaching the lost can understand the milk of the gospel. Galatians 3:24.

In 2 Timothy 3:15 we learn that scripture provides the wisdom needed to lead the lost to salvation, again teaching the lost can understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.

 

[Van]

Scripture teaches this natural ability can be lost either by the practice of sin, such as Soil #1 in Matthew 13, or due to God hardening the hearts of some for His purpose, such as Romans 11. Obviously the premise that all people initially have no ability is false because the act of hardening the heart of people is found several times in scripture.

 

[DaveXR650]

@Van. I read a lot of Owen which is tough to wade though but people would be surprised if they really look into it how much he believed that men have a lot of ability to understand things of God. And not just the information but the spiritual implications of it. The interaction between man's rational and natural mind and the work of the Holy Spirit is far more intricate than many people bother to look at.

 

[Van]

@Van. I read a lot of Owen which is tough to wade though but people would be surprised if they really look into it how much he believed that men have a lot of ability to understand things of God. And not just the information but the spiritual implications of it. The interaction between man's rational and natural mind and the work of the Holy Spirit is far more intricate than many people bother to look at.

Yet the milk of the gospel is so simple even a child can understand it. Those that push supernatural enablement in order to be led to Christ are pushing a relic from the dark ages. As Paul explained people not yet born anew spiritually can understand spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food.

 

[Darrell C]

Yet the milk of the gospel is so simple even a child can understand it. Those that push supernatural enablement in order to be led to Christ are pushing a relic from the dark ages. As Paul explained people not yet born anew spiritually can understand spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food.

"Push supernatural enablement?"

No man can understand the spiritual things of God until 1) God reveals them to him, and 2) gives him understanding. He does so by His Spirit. That is especially true of the Mystery of the Gospel. To think a natural man has the ability to understand the Gospel, child or no, is not supported by Scripture. Sorry.

A child can be made to understand the concept of pain from a hot stove, just as a natural man can be made to understand the concept of the Gospel. But, there is a difference between having intellectual knowledge and actually knowing.

Before someone "knows" the Gospel, it is necessary that God reveal it to him/her. Just because someone tells someone about Christ, doesn't mean they are giving understanding. This is why one plants, one waters, but God gives the increase. We can't make those who are dead (without life because they do not have the life of Christ through His indwelling) alive any more than we make dead seeds alive. We can stick a seed in some dirt, pour on some water, but we do not effect the life that comes about from that process. We are mere bystanders to God's work.

The natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God. No sense denying it.

God bless.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yet the milk of the gospel is so simple even a child can understand it.

I think it was Mark Twain who said something like "It's not the things in the Bible I don't understand that bother me. It's the things I do understand".

Owen himself said "All the doctrines of the gospel may be taught and declared in propositions and discourses, the sense and meaning whereof a natural man may understand".

I think we all understand what Mark Twain meant. We on our own can know what the gospel message is claiming and like Owen says, we don't really examine the claims fairly and find them untrue, but we find them undesirable. That's where we need help. The inability is moral. Therefore it can be held to us as also blamable. As Edwards said "we can't because we won't".

 

[DaveXR650]

Scripture teaches this natural ability can be lost either by the practice of sin, such as Soil #1 in Matthew 13, or due to God hardening the hearts of some for His purpose, such as Romans 11. Obviously the premise that all people initially have no ability is false because the act of hardening the heart of people is found several times in scripture.

I think that's what the Lutherans teach regarding this. Maybe they have a point. It may well be that enough grace is given when the gospel message is heard that man could and should respond, yet he often doesn't.

Even Owen said this: "Everyone to whom the gospel hath been preached, and by whom is it refused, shall be convinced of positive actings in their minds, rejecting the gospel from the love of self, sin and the world". After more discussion. Much more. After all this is Owen, he goes on to say: The present thing in question was not the power or impotency of their minds, but the obstinacy of their wills and affections, which men shall principally be judged upon at the last day". He goes on to say this "That the will and affections being more corrupted than the understanding..... no man doth actually apply his mind to the receiving of the things of the Spirit of God to the utmost of the ability which he hath, for all unregenerate men are invincibly impeded therein by the corrupt stubbornness and perverseness of their wills an affections."

I include all that just to say that when you really take the time to read these guys and try to figure out what they mean you begin to understand that what they are saying is far more profound that just that God chooses some, arbitrarily and then if you question that they say who are you to question God. The fact is, if they are right, God is doing far more than anyone's sense of "fairness" could demand in order to save anybody and yet when it's explained everyone immediately claims unfairness and lack of universal love. All I suggest is that you read a detailed explanation of all this like you find in Owen's book 3 and then if you still aren't convinced then it's just not for you.

 

[Van]

"Push supernatural enablement?"

No man can understand the spiritual things of God until 1) God reveals them to him, and 2) gives him understanding. He does so by His Spirit. That is especially true of the Mystery of the Gospel. To think a natural man has the ability to understand the Gospel, child or no, is not supported by Scripture. Sorry.

A child can be made to understand the concept of pain from a hot stove, just as a natural man can be made to understand the concept of the Gospel. But, there is a difference between having intellectual knowledge and actually knowing.

Before someone "knows" the Gospel, it is necessary that God reveal it to him/her. Just because someone tells someone about Christ, doesn't mean they are giving understanding. This is why one plants, one waters, but God gives the increase. We can't make those who are dead (without life because they do not have the life of Christ through His indwelling) alive any more than we make dead seeds alive. We can stick a seed in some dirt, pour on some water, but we do not effect the life that comes about from that process. We are mere bystanders to God's work.

The natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God. No sense denying it.

God bless.

All false claims are wrapped in truth to make the poison go down. Yes God must reveal, not in dispute!!!! Is it necessary that God "gives him understanding?" Nope, that is a fiction. Some do not understand the revelation, i.e. Soil #1 of Matthew 13, but "many" do, and they seek the narrow door that leads to eternal life. The claim only the enabled do is absolute fiction, for many seek but do not find. The natural person, unless hardened by God or the practice of sin can understand the milk of the gospel. That is why Paul spoke to men of flesh using spiritual milk, not spiritual solid food, 1 Cor. 3:1-3!!!!

The reason only God "gives the increase" is God alone determines whether the person's faith is to be credited as righteousness. That is why faith is according to grace!!!!!!

There is no sense in false doctrine being posted without a shred of actual support anywhere in scripture!!!

 

[Van]

I think it was Mark Twain who said something like "It's not the things in the Bible I don't understand that bother me. It's the things I do understand".

Owen himself said "All the doctrines of the gospel may be taught and declared in propositions and discourses, the sense and meaning whereof a natural man may understand".

I think we all understand what Mark Twain meant. We on our own can know what the gospel message is claiming and like Owen says, we don't really examine the claims fairly and find them untrue, but we find them undesirable. That's where we need help. The inability is moral. Therefore it can be held to us as also blamable. As Edwards said "we can't because we won't".

Yet another obviously false claim, as many seek the narrow door that leads to eternal life. They were not unable to desire God.

 

[Van]

I think that's what the Lutherans teach regarding this. Maybe they have a point. It may well be that enough grace is given when the gospel message is heard that man could and should respond, yet he often doesn't.

Even Owen said this: "Everyone to whom the gospel hath been preached, and by whom is it refused, shall be convinced of positive actings in their minds, rejecting the gospel from the love of self, sin and the world". After more discussion. Much more. After all this is Owen, he goes on to say: The present thing in question was not the power or impotency of their minds, but the obstinacy of their wills and affections, which men shall principally be judged upon at the last day". He goes on to say this "That the will and affections being more corrupted than the understanding..... no man doth actually apply his mind to the receiving of the things of the Spirit of God to the utmost of the ability which he hath, for all unregenerate men are invincibly impeded therein by the corrupt stubbornness and perverseness of their wills an affections."

I include all that just to say that when you really take the time to read these guys and try to figure out what they mean you begin to understand that what they are saying is far more profound that just that God chooses some, arbitrarily and then if you question that they say who are you to question God. The fact is, if they are right, God is doing far more than anyone's sense of "fairness" could demand in order to save anybody and yet when it's explained everyone immediately claims unfairness and lack of universal love. All I suggest is that you read a detailed explanation of all this like you find in Owen's book 3 and then if you still aren't convinced then it's just not for you.

Yet another false claim, that those who understand the gospel but are unable to positively, ignoring that many seek the narrow door that leads to life.

 

[DaveXR650]

The reason only God "gives the increase" is God alone determines whether the person's faith is to be credited as righteousness. That is why faith is according to grace!!!!!!

Of all the posts about how we come to faith and our ability or inability to do so, you are the only one on here who takes the position that is listed in the quote. The idea that you come to have faith, but then you have to wait and see if God will credit that faith as righteousness, as if there are people walking around who do believe but they are lost because God has decided not to credit their particular faith as righteousness is possibly a new theology. You should write a book.

 

[Van]

Of all the posts about how we come to faith and our ability or inability to do so, you are the only one on here who takes the position that is listed in the quote. The idea that you come to have faith, but then you have to wait and see if God will credit that faith as righteousness, as if there are people walking around who do believe but they are lost because God has decided not to credit their particular faith as righteousness is possibly a new theology. You should write a book.

The reason is my bible has Romans Chapter 4 and Matthew Chapter 7, whereas your man-made doctrine seems to have removed those parts of God's word. Depart from Me, I never knew you. His faith was credited as righteousness. Duh

 

[DaveXR650]

The reason is my bible has Romans Chapter 4 and Matthew Chapter 7, whereas your man-made doctrine seems to have removed those parts of God's word. Depart from Me, I never knew you. His faith was credited as righteousness. Duh

His faith (Abraham's) was indeed credited for righteousness, and verses 11 and 12 of Romans 4 explain that it was an example for the rest of us. It was never intended that somebody come up with a doctrine that the whole thing was about making sure that the faith you have gets credited for righteousness. The idea isn't that there were a bunch of people with faith but the problem was that their faith was not credited for righteousness.

God alone determines whether the person's faith is to be credited as righteousness. That is why faith is according to grace!!!!!!

God already determined that a person's faith would be credited as righteousness. That's what Romans 4 is about. Either you are just "off" in your theology or maybe you just aren't explaining yourself. But I would just suggest that most of us are not that original or profound in our theology. And if you find yourself saying stuff where there is no one else in the world who you can site as a reference for further reading there you might at least look into the possibility that it is you who is off base.

 

[Van]

His faith (Abraham's) was indeed credited for righteousness, and verses 11 and 12 of Romans 4 explain that it was an example for the rest of us. It was never intended that somebody come up with a doctrine that the whole thing was about making sure that the faith you have gets credited for righteousness. The idea isn't that there were a bunch of people with faith but the problem was that their faith was not credited for righteousness.

God already determined that a person's faith would be credited as righteousness. That's what Romans 4 is about. Either you are just "off" in your theology or maybe you just aren't explaining yourself. But I would just suggest that most of us are not that original or profound in our theology. And if you find yourself saying stuff where there is no one else in the world who you can site as a reference for further reading there you might at least look into the possibility that it is you who is off base.

Now we have Romans 4:23-25 ripped from the pages of scripture. Here is the incredible falsehood, never intended ... that the faith you have gets credited for righteousness.

Now lets read Romans 4:23-25 together:

Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our wrongdoings, and was raised because of our justification.

Folks, the level of absolute denial of God's word is non-stop from those pushing false doctrine.

 

[DaveXR650]

@Van. You must be one of the most mixed up people on here. We have people who have various understandings of how much we can on our own come to Christ or what ability we have to believe in a saving way. And we discuss how that works on here continuously. But you and you alone have some kind of hybrid belief where everyone indeed has the ability to understand the gospel, and faith is well within the reach of our human reasoning, but then, we have to wait and see if God sovereignly credits our faith for righteousness. So God's is sovereign in salvation, but in your scheme of things he is sovereign after we believe, when we are waiting to see if he will credit our faith for righteousness.

God alone determines whether the person's faith is to be credited as righteousness.

Those are your words quoted from above so make sure you include that when you start the "folks" stuff. They can read too.

 

[Van]

Folks, did you see any acknowledgement of error, that scripture actually teaches God credits the faith as righteousness of those He bestows blessings? Neither did I. Only more addressing my behavior, not scripture. Go figure.

Here is the deal. Scripture teaches many will seek the narrow door that leads to eternal life. Thus the claim the lost cannot seek God unless enabled by irresistible grace is false. Scripture teaches Paul spoke to people of flesh (not indwelt) using spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel. He would only do that if many of the lost could understand and respond to the gospel. Jesus spoke in parables to "prevent" the lost from understanding because the timing of His revelation to that audience had not yet come. I could go on and on, but do not expect any acknowledgement from those who deny those parts of scripture that indicate their doctrine is unbiblical nonsense.