Human Volition / Divine Sovereignty

very scholarly sounding. I got just one thing to say:

Job was already a quickened soul before God, somebody born from above by the will of God, not a lost soul, and therefore, capable of responding with praise to his God even in the face of calamities, as only a quickened soul can do that, one who knows God, and whom God knows. The lost, those whom the god of this world has blinded, are incapable of coming to God bowing to His supremacy and sovereignty in all things.

Secondly, you forget that moving forward, Job did feel, and voiced out, self-pity, and questions his circumstances and so a change of pace occurs in Job when the Bible says in Job 32:1 "and so these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes".

 

Can you offer proof for this?

 

NT saint was "born again"/regenerate/quickened. Job WAS justified before God. Scripture says he had no sin. He was apparently "innocent as the day he was born." He believed God and had NOT eaten the "forbidden fruit" yet according to the account in Job. I would suggest that the only sin Job had was the "unknown [to him] fault" of pride which he discovers at the end whereupon God restores him 7 fold.

So what Satan had to work with was very similar to Adam and Eve. And apparently God is showing to Satan His mercy had Satan repented in due season.

I hope I'm not adding to the story, Alex. It seems you have a good handle on this lesson in Job.

I never have liked what this insinuates -- that man has no responsibility in his own "rebirth." It describes utter "hands off" conversion of a person who then has such radical changes in behavior and attitude that one would have to consider that he/she was newly "brainwashed," not saved. or under the influence of drugs as they accused those at Pentecost --- but not reborn.

And then you not being able to describe it but in "mystical" terms only makes one wish it could happen to them. But indeed, volition was involved in your case as well.

skypair

 

Can you offer a counter argument with proof that an unregenerate soul is able to praise God in the midst of tribulations and sufferings ?

Perhaps there are no direct Scriptures that names Job as a born-again soul, or regenerate, but certainly there are plenty of Scriptures that point to the truth that only children of God, those in whom dwell God, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are able to praise God in the midst of trials and tribulations, scriptures that lead you to such a doctrinal conclusion.

The book of psalms and proverbs alone has nearly a hundred verses with the word "praise" in relation to God, and not one of them comes from the lips of the unrighteous and the wicked, exceptin' if you want to say that
Psalms 74:10 is one.

Even the book of Job tells you that Job is a child of God, not simply a creation like the rest of mankind.

First, God calls him His servant, not in the context of Darius being God's servant in fulfilling God's plan for Israel, but as one who serves God in the way he lives his life: one who fears God, and escheweth evil. Hardly can be said of many "Christians" today.

Now, do you have Scriptures that say an unregenerate soul can fear God in the proper sense (and not as the devils do), and serve God, and eschew evil ?

 

Well, then, to simplify things, why don't you look for a Biblical example of an unarguably unregenerate individual, and see if he has volitional responses that clearly shows he is able to choose good from evil without any particular influence from God.

 

posted in error

 

Okay, since you clearly have no Scriptures to back up your heavenly and saintly argument versus our satanic argument, then why don't you begin with explaining to us mouthpieces of Satan how to understand the "design and function of volition and the nature and function of Divine Sovereignty."

Lecture us, professor.

 

pinoy,
I think this guy is a set up, troll, baiter, whatever you want to call it. Look at the name, and the date of birth. This is either a troublemaker or a joker, not a serious debater.

 

okay, thanks for the heads up, SN, 'preciate it.

 

Yup. It's pretty obvious. It only took a few posts before I dusted off my feet with this guy.

 

I'm just curious how you can label a guy a troll on his screen name and birthday and 20 posts

His delivery may need to be toned down, but I haven't read anything that would suggest he's a troll yet.

 

posted in error

 

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

Job 1:8

 

I usually don't respond to threads which appear to be going downhill but...
In answer to Pinoy's challenge (though he did not ask me in particular)...

This is an academic response.

While the human participant in this conversation is clearly unregenerate God fully treats him as having the ability to respond to a choice.

Genesis 4

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

It seems out of character of God to me that He should even be having this conversation with Cain and giving Cain His expectation of him if He had not the desire or at least the inclination to kindle that desire through the power of the Spirit to do the right thing. Why bother with Cain if God knows he is not elect?

Also BTW and FWIW this unregenerate indivdual later makes an oblique request of God and He honors it.

Genesis 4

13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.​

In the NT we aslo have the account of Ananias and Sapphira:​

Acts 5
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

I agree with the person who said that it really doesn't matter whether there is regeneration or not.​

Are we saying that a regenerate man now has the ability to overturn the Sovereignty of God with His "volition" (to use the argument of some of the reformed folks)?​

Again this is an academic answer. In reality I am one of the baffled ones mentioned in the OP and I think in this case I'd rather be baffled than in error one way or the other (but that maybe a desire of my flesh).​

Anyway, I thought I would respond to Pinoy. These are the best Scriptures I could come up with brother, what do you think?​

HankD​

 

Yes, Job was an unregenerate soul who praised God in the midst of trials. I refer to him as unregenerate because the promise of regeneration is not given in scripture until THOUSANDS of years after Job died, and the fulfillment of that promise did not occur for THOUSANDS of years after that. You are simply reading your theological presupposition into Job's life. The best proof that you are doing this is that you did not answer my question, but responded to me with a question.