Hyper-preterism and the Great Commission

[Martin Marprelate]

I saw a couple of posts on one of the Hyper-preterism (hereafter, H.P.) threads that got me thinking. First there was this one:-

Nor is it a difficult thing for you to add "pauses" to God's Word which Christ did not speak of, or to make Him out to be a liar. He was speaking directly to the apostles, not to some mythical future disciples. If your best rebuttal is that Christ could have possibly been speaking of some other group of disciples instead of the group to whom He was actually speaking, then your doctrine is resting on a thin foundation of assumption & personal presupposition.

This appears to be saying that what our Lord spoke to His Apostles does not apply to anyone else and that therefore His commands or promises to the Apostles are not commands nor promises to those who followed them, nor to us.

Then there was this one:-

The Apostles question of Matthew 24:3 certainly tells us when the temple would be destroyed is when the end of the age would be and that is when he would come back—and that just happen to be 70 AD.

So the end of the Age was AD 70.

Now let's consider the Great Commission as we find it in Matthew.

'Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.'
Matt 28:16-20 (NKJV)

We may observe here three important matters.

1. The Lord Jesus was speaking to the Apostles. According to Michael-Acts we should not imagine for one moment that this commission is directed at us.

2. If we take our lead from the H.P. interpretaion of Matt 24:14, then 'All the Nations' refers only to the Nations within the Roman World. There is no commission to take the Gospel to India or China. Carey and Judson were sadly deceived.

3. The Lord Jesus promised to be with the Apostles, 'To the end of the age.' Since Logos 1 has informed us that the end of the age was AD 70, that means that if John lived until AD 100 or so as Church tradition suggests, then Christ was not with him for the last 30 years of his life. Nor is Christ with us in our evangelism. If you American brothers are trying to evangelize the lost in the U.S.A., you are doing it without the authority of Christ, since America was never part of the Roman Empire, and anyway, Christ only promised to be with anybody until AD 70, and that promise was only to the Apostles.

So what is John of Japan doing? He has no authority to do evangelism outside of the Roman world and Christ is not with him. Come home now, John. You're wasting your time.

Isn't H.P. wonderful? :smilewinkgrin:

Steve

 

[preacher4truth]

I saw a couple of posts on one of the Hyper-preterism (hereafter, H.P.) threads that got me thinking. First there was this one:-

This appears to be saying that what our Lord spoke to His Apostles does not apply to anyone else and that therefore His commands or promises to the Apostles are not commands nor promises to those who followed them, nor to us.

Then there was this one:-

So the end of the Age was AD 70.

Now let's consider the Great Commission as we find it in Matthew.

'Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.'
Matt 28:16-20 (NKJV)

We may observe here three important matters.

1. The Lord Jesus was speaking to the Apostles. According to Michael-Acts we should not imagine for one moment that this commission is directed at us.

2. If we take our lead from the H.P. interpretaion of Matt 24:14, then 'All the Nations' refers only to the Nations within the Roman World. There is no commission to take the Gospel to India or China. Carey and Judson were sadly deceived.

3. The Lord Jesus promised to be with the Apostles, 'To the end of the age.' Since Logos 1 has informed us that the end of the age was AD 70, that means that if John lived until AD 100 or so as Church tradition suggests, then Christ was not with him for the last 30 years of his life. Nor is Christ with us in our evangelism. If you American brothers are trying to evangelize the lost in the U.S.A., you are doing it without the authority of Christ, since America was never part of the Roman Empire, and anyway, Christ only promised to be with anybody until AD 70, and that promise was only to the Apostles.

So what is John of Japan doing? He has no authority to do evangelism outside of the Roman world and Christ is not with him. Come home now, John. You're wasting your time.

Isn't H.P. wonderful? :smilewinkgrin:

Steve

The bottom line? These Sadducees don't want nor do they see much of Scripture applying to anyone today. Somewhere along the line someone robbed them of their hope, and they want to pass along their new found knowledge to others for the same objective. These are akin to Hymenaeus and Philetus, those whom Paul warned us about, and are neo-gnostics, claiming all things are now "spritualized" and that the resurrection is past.

There's nothing new under the Sun.

- Peace

 

[JesusFan]

I saw a couple of posts on one of the Hyper-preterism (hereafter, H.P.) threads that got me thinking. First there was this one:-

This appears to be saying that what our Lord spoke to His Apostles does not apply to anyone else and that therefore His commands or promises to the Apostles are not commands nor promises to those who followed them, nor to us.

Then there was this one:-

So the end of the Age was AD 70.

Now let's consider the Great Commission as we find it in Matthew.

'Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.'
Matt 28:16-20 (NKJV)

We may observe here three important matters.

1. The Lord Jesus was speaking to the Apostles. According to Michael-Acts we should not imagine for one moment that this commission is directed at us.

2. If we take our lead from the H.P. interpretaion of Matt 24:14, then 'All the Nations' refers only to the Nations within the Roman World. There is no commission to take the Gospel to India or China. Carey and Judson were sadly deceived.

3. The Lord Jesus promised to be with the Apostles, 'To the end of the age.' Since Logos 1 has informed us that the end of the age was AD 70, that means that if John lived until AD 100 or so as Church tradition suggests, then Christ was not with him for the last 30 years of his life. Nor is Christ with us in our evangelism. If you American brothers are trying to evangelize the lost in the U.S.A., you are doing it without the authority of Christ, since America was never part of the Roman Empire, and anyway, Christ only promised to be with anybody until AD 70, and that promise was only to the Apostles.

So what is John of Japan doing? He has no authority to do evangelism outside of the Roman world and Christ is not with him. Come home now, John. You're wasting your time.

Isn't H.P. wonderful? :smilewinkgrin:

Steve

So the Age ended in AD 70, and the Great Commission was only to last 40 years, as the church had evangelized all of the earth?

So we need to no longer make disciples of anyone, as jesus already returned and ushered in new Age, no more need to convert!

 

[John of Japan]

I saw a couple of posts on one of the Hyper-preterism (hereafter, H.P.) threads that got me thinking. First there was this one:-

This appears to be saying that what our Lord spoke to His Apostles does not apply to anyone else and that therefore His commands or promises to the Apostles are not commands nor promises to those who followed them, nor to us.

Then there was this one:-

So the end of the Age was AD 70.

Now let's consider the Great Commission as we find it in Matthew.

'Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.'
Matt 28:16-20 (NKJV)

We may observe here three important matters.

1. The Lord Jesus was speaking to the Apostles. According to Michael-Acts we should not imagine for one moment that this commission is directed at us.

2. If we take our lead from the H.P. interpretaion of Matt 24:14, then 'All the Nations' refers only to the Nations within the Roman World. There is no commission to take the Gospel to India or China. Carey and Judson were sadly deceived.

3. The Lord Jesus promised to be with the Apostles, 'To the end of the age.' Since Logos 1 has informed us that the end of the age was AD 70, that means that if John lived until AD 100 or so as Church tradition suggests, then Christ was not with him for the last 30 years of his life. Nor is Christ with us in our evangelism. If you American brothers are trying to evangelize the lost in the U.S.A., you are doing it without the authority of Christ, since America was never part of the Roman Empire, and anyway, Christ only promised to be with anybody until AD 70, and that promise was only to the Apostles.

So what is John of Japan doing? He has no authority to do evangelism outside of the Roman world and Christ is not with him. Come home now, John. You're wasting your time.

Isn't H.P. wonderful? :smilewinkgrin:

Steve

Well now, Steve, since I'm referenced on here and have participated in some of those threads, I'll follow this thread. But we ain't packing our bags to leave Japan yet. :type:

And you've made a good point. It will be interesting to see if the HP folk can keep to the point of the thread and rebut it. I suspect not.

 

[asterisktom]

I saw a couple of posts on one of the Hyper-preterism (hereafter, H.P.) threads that got me thinking. First there was this one:-

This appears to be saying that what our Lord spoke to His Apostles does not apply to anyone else and that therefore His commands or promises to the Apostles are not commands nor promises to those who followed them, nor to us.

Then there was this one:-

So the end of the Age was AD 70.

Now let's consider the Great Commission as we find it in Matthew.

'Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.'
Matt 28:16-20 (NKJV)

We may observe here three important matters.

1. The Lord Jesus was speaking to the Apostles. According to Michael-Acts we should not imagine for one moment that this commission is directed at us.

2. If we take our lead from the H.P. interpretaion of Matt 24:14, then 'All the Nations' refers only to the Nations within the Roman World. There is no commission to take the Gospel to India or China. Carey and Judson were sadly deceived.

3. The Lord Jesus promised to be with the Apostles, 'To the end of the age.' Since Logos 1 has informed us that the end of the age was AD 70, that means that if John lived until AD 100 or so as Church tradition suggests, then Christ was not with him for the last 30 years of his life. Nor is Christ with us in our evangelism. If you American brothers are trying to evangelize the lost in the U.S.A., you are doing it without the authority of Christ, since America was never part of the Roman Empire, and anyway, Christ only promised to be with anybody until AD 70, and that promise was only to the Apostles.

So what is John of Japan doing? He has no authority to do evangelism outside of the Roman world and Christ is not with him. Come home now, John. You're wasting your time.

Isn't H.P. wonderful? :smilewinkgrin:

Steve

There are several incredible misconstructions here of Preterism, which I won't bother to correct, seeing that MM is one of those who reads for ammunition rather than for understanding. Besides, he is playing to his crowd, so I will let him have his enjoyment. (And I am not saying that you are incapable of understanding, MM, just that, in my case at least, you don't seem to think I am worth the courteous effort. Rather, you give us "Hyper-Preterists" the doubt of the benefit).

But just a few comments for those who are willing to at least consider these things from a different (but, Biblical) perspective.

First of all, no Preterist that I know says that we should not evangelize others. The Gospel is the Gospel. It still saves lives. One can believe this and yet still understand the passage in Matthew to have been fulfilled.

If we would apply MM's jejune illogic consistently we would have to say that, after the Second Coming ("the end of the age") the Lord will no longer be with us, seeing that He promised to be with us until that time - not after.

"Church tradition" does not unequivocally say that John lived until AD 100. There is other tradition that puts his death before Paul's. If anyone wants sources I will gladly give them (again). So, then, MM's twitting comment about John being without Christ for thirty years is also mooted.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There are several incredible misconstructions here of Preterism, which I won't bother to correct

Yep! You've done it again. You've gone all huffy to avoid getting into a debate.

First of all, no Preterist that I know says that we should not evangelize others. The Gospel is the Gospel. It still saves lives. One can believe this and yet still understand the passage in Matthew to have been fulfilled.

How? The Great Commission has been fulfilled. According to your interpretation of Col 1:23, the Gospel had already been preached to every creature under heaven by AD 61 or so. By what authority do you do your evangelism? What Biblical reason do you have to suppose that God is with you when you do it? Anxious minds want to know.

If we would apply MM's jejune illogic consistently we would have to say that, after the Second Coming ("the end of the age") the Lord will no longer be with us, seeing that He promised to be with us until that time - not after.

According to Matt 28, the Lord Jesus promised to be with the Apostles (He wasn't talking to you or about you) in their evangelism until the end of the age. Aren't you the one who says that Scripture should be interpreted strictly and logically.

Steve

 

[DHK]

"Church tradition" does not unequivocally say that John lived until AD 100. There is other tradition that puts his death before Paul's. If anyone wants sources I will gladly give them (again). So, then, MM's twitting comment about John being without Christ for thirty years is also mooted.

That really just gets into a type of power struggle of "my sources are better than your sources." I have seen both sides. It used to be thought by some that John was dated earlier. But more recent evidence has made rather conclusive and decidedly proof that John must be dated at a much later date as in the 90's. One of those evidences is simply in the seven churches themselves. From the time Paul wrote to Ephesus for example, it would have needed time to change from the state it was in then (in the 60's) to the state it was when Christ wrote to it (before the 70's or the same time, or the 90's when it had time to deteriorate spiritually). That is just one example. There are many other internal evidences at why the book must be dated in the 90's that the earlier writers never considered.

 

[asterisktom]

Yep! You've done it again. You've gone all huffy to avoid getting into a debate.

I want this one response to stand alone. This is a perfect example of people like you consistently putting a bad slant on comments. If I don't choose to reply to every single one of your many points it is to be chalked up to huffiness! I'm sorry, "all huffy to avoid getting into a debate".

What is it with you?

 

[asterisktom]

According to Matt 28, the Lord Jesus promised to be with the Apostles (He wasn't talking to you or about you) in their evangelism until the end of the age. Aren't you the one who says that Scripture should be interpreted strictly and logically.

No, you are not getting by with this. Be consistent. Is this Great Commission for our time? Is the end of the age - according to you - the second coming? If it is, then (according to your logic in your putdown of Preterism) this would have to be the end, not only of evangelization, but of our Lord's very presence with us.

I am only using Christ's word, "until", with the same force that you are.

 

[asterisktom]

That really just gets into a type of power struggle of "my sources are better than your sources." I have seen both sides. It used to be thought by some that John was dated earlier. But more recent evidence has made rather conclusive and decidedly proof that John must be dated at a much later date as in the 90's. One of those evidences is simply in the seven churches themselves. From the time Paul wrote to Ephesus for example, it would have needed time to change from the state it was in then (in the 60's) to the state it was when Christ wrote to it (before the 70's or the same time, or the 90's when it had time to deteriorate spiritually). That is just one example. There are many other internal evidences at why the book must be dated in the 90's that the earlier writers never considered.

All of this translates to:
1. This is nothing but a power struggle of "My sources are better than yours".
2. "By the way [You then go on to argue] my sources are better than yours". :tongue3:

 

[asterisktom]

But more recent evidence has made rather conclusive and decidedly proof that John must be dated at a much later date as in the 90's. One of those evidences is simply in the seven churches themselves. From the time Paul wrote to Ephesus for example, it would have needed time to change from the state it was in then (in the 60's) to the state it was when Christ wrote to it (before the 70's or the same time, or the 90's when it had time to deteriorate spiritually).

OK, I'll bite. Could you please point out those details in the two accounts of the Church of Ephesus that you think require a passage of decades?

 

[DHK]

OK, I'll bite. Could you please point out those details in the two accounts of the Church of Ephesus that you think require a passage of decades?

Here is the information that MacArthur provides about the date of the book in his one volume Bible Commentary, pgs. 1989-1990

Revelation was written in the last decade of the first century (ca AD 94 – 96), near the end of Emperor Domitian’s reign (AD 81 – 96). Although some date it during Nero’s reign (AD 54 – 68), their arguments are unconvincing and conflict with the view of the early church. Writing in the second century, Irenaeus declared that Revelation had been written toward the end of Domitian’s reign. Later writers, such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Victorianus (who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on Revelation), Eusebius, and Jerome affirm the Domitian date.
The spiritual decline of the seven churches (chs 2, 3) also argues for the later date. Those churches were strong and spiritually healthy in the mid-60s, when Paul last ministered in Asia Minor. The brief time between Paul’s ministry there and the end of Nero’s reign was too short for such a dramatic decline to have occurred. The longer time gap also explains the rise of the heretical sect known as the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15), who are not mentioned in Paul’s letters, not even to one or more of these same churches (Ephesians). Finally, dating Revelation during Nero’s reign does not allow time for John’s ministry in Asia Minor to reach the point at which the authorities would have felt the need to exile him.

There are also a number of others that make the same point.

The KJV Study Bible simply says that the preterist "is a view taken by most liberals, who refuse to see any valid prophecy in the Bible." It also dates the book between 96-98 A.D., as well as a number of other commentaries.