I am abandoning TULIP

Very creative - I like it!

 

Calvinism by any other name remains Calvinism!

 

Wes,

I never met anyone named "man", but my problem was fear of stating the obvious. "I am a sinner."

Only then does total depravity become meaningful. And only then could the Blood be applied.

 

El_Guero,
I AM A SINNER! I confess my sins in the Name of Jesus, and God the Father forgives me. I repent from sinning to the best of my ability, which is somewhat weak. Even so, God forgives me for the sins I do commit and which I do confess. He is a kind, merciful and loving father God.

However, I need not fear, because my sins were atoned for 2000 years ago. I am not under the penalty of death and neither are you, nor is anyone living today! Jesus paid that penalty in our stead. Before He did that, he told us that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have evelasting life. THAT WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE IF JESUS HAD NOT ATONED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. We would die for our sins no matter how much faith in God or good works we could muster, but there is NO DEATH PENALTY for sin ANYMORE, and hasn't been one for 2000 years.

The blood was applied to ALL sin IN ALL Times, ONCE FOR ALL, 2000 years ago! Stop recrucifying Jesus! It is not necessary nor is it possible. ALL sins IN ALL TIMES have been atoned. Why can't you see that truth and understand that we are not bound to death, but can have life everlasting through FAITH in Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God? NO we are not totally depraved and who ever hammered that into your consciousness should be flogged to within and inch of his life. Sinners? YES, Totally depraved? NO!

 

Excellent TCassidy

 

I liked the five points of e-l-e-c-t too.

 

Frankly, I like the Doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation but ELECT as a shorthand version will do.

Seriously, a lot of people reject the Biblical Doctrines of Grace as being without Scriptural basis because they are so closely linked to the name Calvinism. They fail to recognize, as that great Baptist preacher Spurgeon did, that Calvinism is just a "nickname" for the Biblical Doctrines of Grace.

 

TC...

I have a problem with the "E" and the "T" though... I don't know why but it doesn't go along with my "feelings" about what I think God is like (never mind what the BIBLE says God is like) so I'm going to go into the Bible and force my "feelings" into scripture so I can find some verse, take them out of context and tell you the "E" and the "I" are wrong!

 

I am confused.

Isn't this the same TCassidy that called Pelagius one of his church's "church fathers"? In another thread?

 

Recently we took a quiz here on the board about Calvinism and most of us who do not claim to be Calvinists agreed with at least 3 points. I fit into that catagory but believe that anyone who doesn't embrace Preordination/ predesitnation shouldn't profess to be a Calvinist.

 

Tcassidy- that is downright awesome. I read the thread title and was like...WHAT? then read the post and broke out laughing by L. VERY NICE!

 

Hey guys... I'm back..

Diane... I believe that anyone who doesn't embrace Preordination/predestination shouldn't profess to be BIBLICAL....

 

Diane,

Is it just us ... or hasn't anyone noticed that TCassidy

Talk about NOT Biblical.

I ask: WHY? WHY? WHY? why would you elevate a heretic to be your church father?

 

El_Guero,
Do you not realize that heresy is a matter of perspective? Those who were called heretic were so called heretic by those who held one set of beliefs and were not mentally or spiritually able to see what the one they put that label on was telling them. So they labeled him heretic because he did not parrot exactly what they believed.

To Calvinist's, all who oppose their set of beliefs are heretic.

That said, exactly what did Pelagius believe that is not biblical? What was it that the "church" could not accept? Present your argument from Pelagius' point of view.

 

Hey Wes,

I have no idea what TCassidy said or what El Guero is trying to prove, but I don't know of anyone, Arminian or Calvinist, who thinks that Pelagius wasn't a heretic. Google for "pelagius heresy" or something like that and you'll find all kinds of evidence. Here's one summary, contrasting his views to those of his contemporary Augustine:

Calvinists continue in the Augustinian tradition, while Arminians tend toward Pelagius' views but without denying original sin, and they affirm the necessity of Christ's death. Most people today are somewhere in between these two positions, and almost everyone agrees that Pelagian beliefs are heretical.

 

I see nothing heretical in what you've posted of Pelagius' views. The scriptures support Pelagius! The scriptures do definitely say that man does control his own destiny. Faith vs Lack of faith!

He was falsely accused by a group of people HOLDING ONE set of views, those of Augustine. You would be wise to avoid expressing this opinion: "and almost everyone agrees that Pelagian beliefs are heretical." It is one of the boldest lies of modern times. Your circle of influence is entirely too small! You should get out and mingle more with people of other persuasions and you will see just how false your declaration is.

We factionalized believers today are the result of Augustine's OPINIONS about scripture and how they do not measure up to the totality of scripture any more than your own do.

What is not supported in scripture is Election and Predestination...with the exception of those used of God to accomplish his purposes, and the Apostles are clear examples of those who are Elect. The apostles, along with a very localized geographically speaking, relatively small group of people were the ONLY ONES TAUGHT BY GOD! God the son never traveled more than 800 furlongs from his place of birth. The apostles received INTENSE TEACHING from God the Son. The apostles were elected to their roles in Scripture and the building of the Christ's Church which is not builded upon Peter, but rather upon the single truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Until you take your blinders off, you will never understand what I am telling you, and we will continue to argue over the OPINIONS OF Persons like CALVIN, ARMINIUS, AUGUSTINE, etc. You see, Whetstone, You are doing what PAUL warned should not be done when he said to the people that some are aligning themselves with Apollos, some with Paul, etc.

Paul declared that His alignment is with the Christ, and I am convinced he was. I too do not align myself to any man, nor do I hold their opinions in high regard in the manner that you do!

 

That was nice, Tcassidy. I especially like your first point.

People think, "oh, well, I'm not as bad as so-in-so," but the truth is any one of us could be far more sinful than we are or ever have been . . .it lies within us the sinful desire to steal, hurt, and kill.

Without the saving grace of God, who knows where each of us would be now.

Praise Him for his goodness!