I could really use some prayer and advice

[ChildofGod]

I am new here and hoping for some advice on handling a delicate situation. I'm sorry if this gets a little long, I'm trying to give as much pertinent info without going overboard.

I am a member of a church in a small town (population less than 10,000). I attend a church that has been around for about 50 years or so. In 1987 they built their currently sanctuary, and sometime after, I'm not sure when, they built a school. Long story short in the "heyday" they had an overflowing church sanctuary (which seats 500), people viewing from the basement, other rooms, etc., and two services. Fast forward to today. This past Sunday was a good Sunday for us. We had 77. I'm not sure what happened with the church, we didn't live here and have only been attending 3 years, and frankly I'm not concerned with the past except, we have massive debt. In my opinion this is not Biblical.

Now we have a large sanctuary, a very small active membership, and our school, which is supposed to be a ministry to the community, has gone from PreK-12 to nursery-1st grade. After being pastor-less 2 YEARS we finally found a bi-vocational pastor who was willing to take on our debt-ridden church. One which we can barely afford to keep the lights on. One of our AC units went out, after 30 years, and were trying to figure out that one right now. Needless to say, we can't do the same things that have always been done and expect different results. I think most people who actively attend know we need to make changes and are on board. Of that I am most thankful to the Lord. Now the new pastor is trying to address the old debt, which has just been kicked down the road, and I feel like people are paralyzed.

My biggest problem is this: Our pastor is bi-vocational, yet we have a full time secretary and part time help (I'm not sure what the part-time helps title is exactly). I'm not trying to demean anyone's effort but our new pastor and his wife work very hard, have no time to themselves and are always exhausted to make this happen. His heart and spirit are in the right place, and truly he felt lead by God to be here, because I don't know of any other reason why he would travel this road sadly. I have a very hard time reconciling with the fact that we have a part-time pastor, who is worn thin, and a full time secretary. The church, to me, is in the business of winning souls to Christ. Further, as I stated earlier, we have 77 on a GOOD Sunday. Most of the time it's around 60-65. I'm not sure what they do to warrant us needing them. I'm not trying to dismiss what they do, one of them, the part-time worker, does do quite a bit. It's the full-time worker that I cannot figure out what she does, other than paying our bills and our bulletins. A lot of other things have been neglected for so long. For instance, our rolls still show nearly 1,500 members, many of which have passed away long, long ago. She never seems to actually be a church, she forwards the phones to her cell. She has another part-time job which she completes while on the job for the church, and sadly, she rarely actually attends church, and doesn't help with any church activities unless she has complete control over it. Although our church doesn't have division, I've pieced together from comments made that many people have noticed this. We simply have these two staff because that's the way the church has always done things. But that way of thinking is what got us where we are right now. Plus, watching the pastor and his wife struggle with multiple employments, while the other staff seem to not even fully do their work for our church doesn't seem all that fair to me. The fact of the matter is though, even if I did feel she was doing her best, we just cannot afford them both any longer.

That being said, the full-time secretary has been going though a really hard time. Her husband died early last year, her mom died late last year, her son is in the middle of a very bad divorce, which is putting her grandchild in turmoil, she just had surgery, her dad is very ill, and he is in surgery today. So it makes it a lot harder to approach the church about cutting staff, yet I still feel it's the right thing to do if done in a loving, Godly way.

When the pastor brought up debt a few weeks ago at a meeting my husband tried to lead into this conversation by saying as hard as it is, we need to really look at our spending and figure out where cuts can be made. The full-time secretary responded that she just couldn't see or find any other ways to cut spending. We have a business meeting next week and, after a lot of prayer, I really feel this needs to be addressed directly.

I am really hoping for some advice on the best, and most Biblical way, to bring up this topic and discuss it fairly and openly without stressing her out more or causing division? She is in her early 50's, and we would obviously want to give her time to transition. I'm not taking about cutting these women off with no time or warning. The part-time worker also works part-time for our school, which I'm quite certain will just take her full-time so that's why I'm not as focused on her. It really needs to be addressed if we are serious about surviving as a church. Because our debt, and us having a part-time pastor and full-time secretary really is convicting and stifling our ability to minister to our community.

 

[Reynolds]

I am new here and hoping for some advice on handling a delicate situation. I'm sorry if this gets a little long, I'm trying to give as much pertinent info without going overboard.

I am a member of a church in a small town (population less than 10,000). I attend a church that has been around for about 50 years or so. In 1987 they built their currently sanctuary, and sometime after, I'm not sure when, they built a school. Long story short in the "heyday" they had an overflowing church sanctuary (which seats 500), people viewing from the basement, other rooms, etc., and two services. Fast forward to today. This past Sunday was a good Sunday for us. We had 77. I'm not sure what happened with the church, we didn't live here and have only been attending 3 years, and frankly I'm not concerned with the past except, we have massive debt. In my opinion this is not Biblical.

Now we have a large sanctuary, a very small active membership, and our school, which is supposed to be a ministry to the community, has gone from PreK-12 to nursery-1st grade. After being pastor-less 2 YEARS we finally found a bi-vocational pastor who was willing to take on our debt-ridden church. One which we can barely afford to keep the lights on. One of our AC units went out, after 30 years, and were trying to figure out that one right now. Needless to say, we can't do the same things that have always been done and expect different results. I think most people who actively attend know we need to make changes and are on board. Of that I am most thankful to the Lord. Now the new pastor is trying to address the old debt, which has just been kicked down the road, and I feel like people are paralyzed.

My biggest problem is this: Our pastor is bi-vocational, yet we have a full time secretary and part time help (I'm not sure what the part-time helps title is exactly). I'm not trying to demean anyone's effort but our new pastor and his wife work very hard, have no time to themselves and are always exhausted to make this happen. His heart and spirit are in the right place, and truly he felt lead by God to be here, because I don't know of any other reason why he would travel this road sadly. I have a very hard time reconciling with the fact that we have a part-time pastor, who is worn thin, and a full time secretary. The church, to me, is in the business of winning souls to Christ. Further, as I stated earlier, we have 77 on a GOOD Sunday. Most of the time it's around 60-65. I'm not sure what they do to warrant us needing them. I'm not trying to dismiss what they do, one of them, the part-time worker, does do quite a bit. It's the full-time worker that I cannot figure out what she does, other than paying our bills and our bulletins. A lot of other things have been neglected for so long. For instance, our rolls still show nearly 1,500 members, many of which have passed away long, long ago. She never seems to actually be a church, she forwards the phones to her cell. She has another part-time job which she completes while on the job for the church, and sadly, she rarely actually attends church, and doesn't help with any church activities unless she has complete control over it. Although our church doesn't have division, I've pieced together from comments made that many people have noticed this. We simply have these two staff because that's the way the church has always done things. But that way of thinking is what got us where we are right now. Plus, watching the pastor and his wife struggle with multiple employments, while the other staff seem to not even fully do their work for our church doesn't seem all that fair to me. The fact of the matter is though, even if I did feel she was doing her best, we just cannot afford them both any longer.

That being said, the full-time secretary has been going though a really hard time. Her husband died early last year, her mom died late last year, her son is in the middle of a very bad divorce, which is putting her grandchild in turmoil, she just had surgery, her dad is very ill, and he is in surgery today. So it makes it a lot harder to approach the church about cutting staff, yet I still feel it's the right thing to do if done in a loving, Godly way.

When the pastor brought up debt a few weeks ago at a meeting my husband tried to lead into this conversation by saying as hard as it is, we need to really look at our spending and figure out where cuts can be made. The full-time secretary responded that she just couldn't see or find any other ways to cut spending. We have a business meeting next week and, after a lot of prayer, I really feel this needs to be addressed directly.

I am really hoping for some advice on the best, and most Biblical way, to bring up this topic and discuss it fairly and openly without stressing her out more or causing division? She is in her early 50's, and we would obviously want to give her time to transition. I'm not taking about cutting these women off with no time or warning. The part-time worker also works part-time for our school, which I'm quite certain will just take her full-time so that's why I'm not as focused on her. It really needs to be addressed if we are serious about surviving as a church. Because our debt, and us having a part-time pastor and full-time secretary really is convicting and stifling our ability to minister to our community.

I do not think you can cure your problem by making cuts. You have to increase revenue. Grow the church.

 

[ChildofGod]

I do understand that and thank you for your input. That's our main priority and what we are actively working on everyday. We are constantly thinking of new and creative ways to reach out and bring people in. Actually, for the first time in awhile I feel the church is finally moving in that direction.

But in the meantime, we literally are having a hard time keeping our lights on. There are month's bills don't get paid but we have paid staff which we don't have the membership and tithers to support unfortunately. Last night our Women's ministry met in the basement (not that it's a big sacrifice or anything, but just to point out) because it's cooler down there and we wouldn't have to turn on the one working AC we have. We actually have to think about logistics as to not use the church due to the costs of keeping the lights on. We are at that point, which is my point. Every single dollar counts. Unfortunately, like many churches, we have a sizeable percent who don't tithe. So ways of increasing revenue are on the table. That's another thing we are bringing up at the business meeting, leasing out some space to another church. Everything is on the table but when it comes to peoples jobs, that's the most delicate topic.

 

[annsni]

I can understand where you are coming from but unless the leadership makes some changes, things are not going to change. I'm sure the full time secretary doesn't make a ton of money but if she is not at the church, she should be paid hourly for the hours she actually works. Usually a church could get away with 2 hours a day from a secretary in a church that size, depending on what needs to be done. Additionally, it might be time to consider selling the large facility you have and looking to pay off bills and get something smaller that you could actually afford. Being in debt is huge to me and I'm so grateful that while I don't agree with how we've spend all of our money in the past, our church is in zero debt and are currently looking to do a huge renovation on our 35 year old sanctuary and we will only do it for cash. We actually put off the start date of the renovation so that we can make some more time to raise the funds (we have about 1/3 of the money right now). A church in debt and then in financial trouble will begin to make decisions not based on the Spirit but on the dollar and that is just not right. Pray for your church. Maybe even get a group of you together to pray for your church - for wisdom and guidance to do what is right.

But just a note: a full time secretary and a bivocational pastor is not a bad thing to have. Sometimes it is more of the secretarial that you need than the pastoring if you have good volunteer deacons/elders.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I don't think there's going to be an easy answer.

If it were me, I would tell her the truth, that we simply cannot afford a full time secretary, but would explain to her that, although we cannot afford to employ her, that we're still her church family and are still committed to her welfare and to honoring the Bible's teaching that we are to come alongside widows and orphans, to whatever degree we can help them.

You don't want to just dump her out in the cold. Some counselling would be in order to find out what her needs are and what the best way to support her is, while she supports herself, to whatever degree she can.

There's not an easy answer either way, but this way, I believe, is the fairest, both to her and to the church.

Now, as for your church's financial problems, it's hard for me to say without looking at your books, but would it be possible to consider merging with a smaller church or possibly renting your facilities out to another church (provided they're vetted and orthodox)?

 

[annsni]

Now, as for your church's financial problems, it's hard for me to say without looking at your books, but would it be possible to consider merging with a smaller church or possibly renting your facilities out to another church (provided they're vetted and orthodox)?

We did this with our small campus. We originally were in a hotel and then we were in a warehouse that we had hoped to renovate but the Board of Health had a problem with the change of use and wanted us to buy water rights to land that will never be developed so we could develop the warehouse to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars. But just when the door closed on that location, we found an ad on Craigslist of all places of a church looking for another church or Christian non-profit to share their building. They are a dwindling church and really are grateful for the extra people in the building and the rent - and we are SO grateful to have an actual building that we can use anytime. It doesn't work for everyone but it seems to be working pretty well for us.