I Have a Bible Question about the Spirit

[BobRyan]

The problem remains -- no Bible writer (no not even Paul) ever argued "Scripture is not yet complete" RATHER Paul argues in 2Tim 3:16 that scripture is already sufficient for salvation.

There were no "scripture is not complete yet so we have to keep dealing with prophets from God" style messages recorded in the NT

in Christ,

Bob

 

[mman]

:type:

Yes, the bible is complete. Nothing should be added to it or taken away.

However, there are still Prophets today. If what they say does not line up with the Word of God, then it is false.

Mman said:
Something you did not answer is, are the revelations today new (and to be rejected (Gal 1)), or are they redundant and therefore unnecessary?

***********************************
Nothing is redundant that is from God. Whether it was spoken 4000 years ago or yesterday.

Don't you know that the Word is a "living" book? Else how could you continue to learn from it all your life.

You also said that the Apostles had knowledge because the bible was not written down yet.

Can you show mw that in the Word of God?

Peace,

Tam

I see we don't understand the word "redundant" the same way. Since there is nothing new, it is redundant. It has already been revealed and recorded, therefore, redundant. Is God's word all sufficient? Are we thoroughly equipped by God's word?

Why would anyone need the gift of prophecy or knowledge today when we have the written word that we can study?

The apostles had knowledge given directly by God. That is easy to show.

Paul said, "But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ." - Gal 1:11-12

Eph 3:3 "how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)"

So Paul had knowledge from God and wrote it down so we could understand. It was given to him by revelation, then he wrote it down so we can understand. That is the process. I don't need a revelation from God if it has already been written, now do I?

Jesus' instructions to His apostles:

Jn 14:26 - But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Jn 16:12-14 - "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Therefore, they were taught and had help remembering. Their knowledge was from above. They were guided into all truth.

God's word is truth (Jn 17:17). That is our guide today. That partial gift of knowledge that was available in the first century is no longer needed and has vanished away (I Cor 13:8), like a child taking the training wheels off a bicycle.

 

[tamborine lady]

:type:

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh :BangHead:

Mmna wrote:

Jn 16:12-14 - "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
*****************************************

Tam says:

He is still spreaking today! That's what makes it the "Living Word".
CAN'T YOU HEAR HIM?


By your logic, the Holy spirit is not spaeking anymore. Is He too gone, since as you say, the Perfect has come?

Selah,

Tam

 

[mman]

:type:

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh :BangHead:

Mmna wrote:

Jn 16:12-14 - "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
*****************************************

Tam says:

He is still spreaking today! That's what makes it the "Living Word".
CAN'T YOU HEAR HIM?


By your logic, the Holy spirit is not spaeking anymore. Is He too gone, since as you say, the Perfect has come?

Selah,

Tam

You are correct. The Holy Spirit is not speaking directly to man today. God speaks to us through His word. That is how the Holy Spirit talks to us today, through the word of God.

If you are hearing something, it is not the Holy Spirit, I guarantee you that.

The above was not written about us, but about the Apostles. They were guided into all truth, they were the ones Jesus was talking to.

Notice back in John 14:25-26 "These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Were you with Jesus while He was on the earth? If not, then you are not part of the "you" He is talking to. The Hebrew writer also points this out in Heb 2. He says that the message was first taught by Jesus and then those who heard Him, and God bore witness through signs and miracles and it has been confirmed.

Once confirmed, it does not need to continually be re-confirmed.

"The Faith" was once for all time delivered (Jude 3). Faith comes from God's word (Rom 10:17), so God's revelation has already been delivered.

A redundant giving of God's message to mankind today is not necessary. We have the written word, what else could we possible need if it truly is all sufficient (II Tim 3:16-17).

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

OP,

they recieved the Holy Spirit back when Christ breathed on them.


In Acts, it says that they received POWER.

There is a difference.

GE:

Jesus "sighed, have you had the Spirit!" His was but a prayer for, and no out-blowing of, the Holy Spirit upon the disciples. The disciples had not that night received the Promised and Prophecy-fulfilling outpouring of the Spirit yet - that happened when on "Pentecost-proper" they received 'Power' as you said.

 

[tamborine lady]

:type:

Mman. I have one simple question. Is the Holy Spirit here on this earth today? If you anwer no, then where is he?

If you answer yes, then what does he do?

Selah,

Tam

 

[BobRyan]

You are correct. The Holy Spirit is not speaking directly to man today. God speaks to us through His word. That is how the Holy Spirit talks to us today, through the word of God.

If you are hearing something, it is not the Holy Spirit, I guarantee you that.

The above was not written about us, but about the Apostles. They were guided into all truth, they were the ones Jesus was talking to.

Notice back in John 14:25-26 "These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

While I agree that God speaks through His word and I would never claim that those who differ with me on this "could not be saved"... I would also point out that in 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14 where spiritual gifts are CONTINUED as authorotative after Pentecost to the point of saying "desire earnestly spiritual gifts ESPECIALLY that YOU may prophesy" that the following facts are also true.

#1. All the Bible writers that would contribute to the NT text had already gotten their prophetic gifts YET Paul urged this for the church even AFTER that had taken place.

#2. Acts 21:7-9 shows us examples of people having that prophetic gift in the NT that never wrote a word of scripture.

#3. Paul never argues in 1Cor 12 or 1Cor 14 that "the Bible is not complete so you need spiritual gifts like Prophecy and tongues and teaching etc".

#4. in Eph 4:1-11 Paul makes it clear that these gifts are to continue until the 2nd coming. Joel 2 states that they are for the last days in general and that starts with Pentecost.

having said all that - I still don't believe the modern tongues phenomena is a genuine form of that spiritual gift and I don't think prophecy is very common at all.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[mman]

:type:

Mman. I have one simple question. Is the Holy Spirit here on this earth today? If you anwer no, then where is he?

If you answer yes, then what does he do?

Selah,

Tam

The Holy Spirit is within the christian. So also is God and Jesus.

Rom 8:9-11 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

What does the Spirit do?

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

God's word is powerful. It contains the message of the gospel which is powerful (Rom 1:16).

Notice II Pet 1:3, "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge..."

God has ALREADY given us all things that we need that pertain to life and godliness. How is this done? Through knowledge. We need to "make every effort" to add knowledge. Everything we know about God and Christ, and how to serve them, has its souce in the Bible. The word of God/Christ is the source of faith (Rom 10:17). The faith was once delivered for all time (Jude 3).

Nobody, and I mean nobody, can know how to serve God without the written word. That is what equips us, thoroughly furnishes us, gives us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

You don't have untaught native tribes in remote areas of the world serving Jesus, following the instructions of the NT. That is why the command is to "Go, teach all nations" - Matt 28:18-20, Rom 10:14-17.

The gospel is powerful. The gospel is what calls us (II Thess 2:14). We have it written down. We must make effort effort to add this knowledge. We have to study or give diligence (II Tim 2:15) to know how to rightly divide it.

 

[mman]

While I agree that God speaks through His word and I would never claim that those who differ with me on this "could not be saved"... I would also point out that in 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14 where spiritual gifts are CONTINUED as authorotative after Pentecost to the point of saying "desire earnestly spiritual gifts ESPECIALLY that YOU may prophesy" that the following facts are also true.

#1. All the Bible writers that would contribute to the NT text had already gotten their prophetic gifts YET Paul urged this for the church even AFTER that had taken place.

#2. Acts 21:7-9 shows us examples of people having that prophetic gift in the NT that never wrote a word of scripture.

#3. Paul never argues in 1Cor 12 or 1Cor 14 that "the Bible is not complete so you need spiritual gifts like Prophecy and tongues and teaching etc".

#4. in Eph 4:1-11 Paul makes it clear that these gifts are to continue until the 2nd coming. Joel 2 states that they are for the last days in general and that starts with Pentecost.

having said all that - I still don't believe the modern tongues phenomena is a genuine form of that spiritual gift and I don't think prophecy is very common at all.

in Christ,

Bob

The spiritual gifts had a limited purpose and were given for the equipping of the saints while Christianity was in its infancy and as confirmation that their message really was from God.

In I Cor 13, there is a contrast between the partial and the complete. The gifts were classified as partial and temporary.

When that which is complete comes, then the partial will be done away with.

While many may claim that the spiritual gifts continue today, none can demonstrate it.

Nobody today can spread the good news in a language they have not learned. That was certainly present in the Scriptures, yet everyone wants to focus on "prayer" language. Well if they have "prayer" language, then why not a real language that is useful in spreading the gospel, as was done in scripture?

Nobody (through the H.S.) today can heal all manner of disease and sickness, with undeniable results as in the N.T. The dead are not being raised, the deaf are not being healed, the blind are not gaining sight, the lame from their birth are not being made whole.

Nobody today can proclaim what they have not heard, believe what they studied, or have knowledge without having learned.

I am not limiting God or the Holy Spirit. They have given us the complete written word that is powerful and thoroughly equips us. We don't need the partial after we have been thoroughly furnished with the completed written good news.

 

[tamborine lady]

:type:

The Holy Spirit is within the christian. So also is God and Jesus.

Rom 8:9-11 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

What does the Spirit do?

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

God's word is powerful. It contains the message of the gospel which is powerful (Rom 1:16).

Notice II Pet 1:3, "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge..."

God has ALREADY given us all things that we need that pertain to life and godliness. How is this done? Through knowledge. We need to "make every effort" to add knowledge. Everything we know about God and Christ, and how to serve them, has its souce in the Bible. The word of God/Christ is the source of faith (Rom 10:17). The faith was once delivered for all time (Jude 3).

Nobody, and I mean nobody, can know how to serve God without the written word. That is what equips us, thoroughly furnishes us, gives us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

You don't have untaught native tribes in remote areas of the world serving Jesus, following the instructions of the NT. That is why the command is to "Go, teach all nations" - Matt 28:18-20, Rom 10:14-17.

The gospel is powerful. The gospel is what calls us (II Thess 2:14). We have it written down. We must make effort effort to add this knowledge. We have to study or give diligence (II Tim 2:15) to know how to rightly divide it.

Good luck with that theology Mman. That is so far off course that there is no need for me to comment further. In my opinion, (and it's only MY opinion) we are so far apart in our understanding of the word, that we could never agree on much of anything.

But thanks for the conversation, it's been fun!

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

[BobRyan]

The spiritual gifts had a limited purpose and were given for the equipping of the saints while Christianity was in its infancy and as confirmation that their message really was from God.

In I Cor 13, there is a contrast between the partial and the complete. The gifts were classified as partial and temporary.

When that which is complete comes, then the partial will be done away with.

While many may claim that the spiritual gifts continue today, none can demonstrate it.

1Cor 13 shows that when Christ comes there is no longer any need for Spiritual Gifts. Eph 4:1-11 makes the same point.

Joel 2 argues that Spiritual Gifts are for "the last days".

The argument for the continuation of Spiritual Gifts is not based on "the stellar history of the Christian church throughout the dark ages" rather the argument is based on the purpose of God as seen in scripture itself.

To counter that doctrinal position you can not simply argue from the failings of mankind to be fully blessed by those gifts in it's Laodicean state. The failings of man "do not determine doctrine". Rather doctrine is determined "sola scriptura".

No NT Bible writer ever argued "the scriptures are not yet perfect" nor "the scriptures are not yet complete". That was never a doctrinal argument for NT writers to justify or prove some NT Christian practice.

in Christ,

Bb