I Have a Question About Hell and Eternity

[DHK]

The problem with such "I see's 'em as I reads 'em" interpretation is that it backfires badly on the "hell is eternal" position.

Take Romans 6:23:

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Does Paul say that the wages of sin is an infinite stay in hell? No,

In fact he does.
The verse is a contrast. He is contrasting eternal life to eternal death. As one has eternal life through Jesus Christ; one has eternal death because of the wages of his sin. It is a contrast. The adjective "eternal" is implied.

Death is separation. Throughout the Bible it is always used as separation.
1. There is physical death.
"For as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead."
James says the body without the spirit is dead. That is physical death, that we are all acquainted with--when the spirit leaves the body, and the body becomes a mere corpse. The body is separated from the spirit.

2. There is spiritual death.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--When a person isn't saved is spiritually dead. These believers were once dead--not physically, but spiritually. They were made alive spiritually when they were born again, when the Holy Spirit entered into them and quickened their spirits with His Spirit. The person is separated from God through sin.

3. Romans 6:23 describes eternal death--separation from God for all eternity.
The wages of sin is death. Death is eternal--eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. The only remedy for that is eternal life through believing in Jesus Christ.
There are three types of death. Death is separation.

 

[BobRyan]

God said --

John 16
12 ""

I have many more things

to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 ""But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 ""He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "" All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.[/b]

BUT DHK said

You have this warped idea that just because all the Bible is inspired (which is true), that it all becomes the words of Jesus. That is wrong.

Don't try to wiggle out of your lie.

How sad that ALL Scripture is INSPIRED BY GOD but DHK does not want to hear that Christ is the AUTHOR of it!!

How sad that DHK gets into wild extreme positions like "Don't use that part of scripture to support that Doctrine" both with the OT and now with the book of Jude on the subject of "everlasting fire".

Once having gone down that wrong path DHK - you seem to be married to one wrong post after another when it comes to the method for supporting and understanding Bible doctrine.

I know we have come to expect this of cults who want to slice out sections of the Bible ignoring some and accepting others -- but your "The Words and teaching of Christ are not in Jude" argument would be expected in their churches NOT in a baptist church. For that reason I am not accusing ANY Baptist group of believing the WILD unsupportable extreme positions you have taken to posting these days.

I am sorry to see your methods come down to this level.

And the fact that you mix in ad hominem after false accusation in your posts that appeal for NOT looking at certain portions of scripture just increases the evidence we see on this board for the difficulty you are having.

Hint: Throw away the shovel
Hint: INSTEAD of basing argument after argument on "don't look at THAT part of scripture to get the full meaning of this doctrine" - try a more "Bible embracing practice". Then you wont have to make wild statements as in the one quoted at the top of this post.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I have difficulty following your point here. What I (and Bob I presume) are disputing is the specific claim that on Good Friday the thief entered conscious bliss in "paradise". Such a claim would seem to have to be false for the following reasons:

1. From John 20, we know that Jesus had not risen to the Father. This claim by Jesus is made well after Good Friday

2. Paradise almost certainly is identified with "where God is" in texts such as 2 Cor 12 and Revelation 2:

3. Therefore, the thief could not have been with Jesus in Paradise on Good Friday as many claim - he could not have with Jesus in Paradise on Good Friday since we know Jesus had (NOT?)P been there as of several days later.

Now, if I understand you properly, this is not your claim at all and you suggest that Arminians are mistakenly reading his statement to the thief as a statement about eternal life when it is in fact a statement about completing the salvation work of God. Fine.

Agreed with your points Andre! But one correction - GE's wild claim that our view on "Paradise" is somehow "Arminian" is curious of not simply dead wrong.

The Arminian position refers to issues regarding free will.

Andre said to GE
But you claim the following in your post in respect to Good Friday (my bolding):

"In fact in that day all the saved went into eternal life through and in Jesus Christ"

GE is prone to "Making stuff up" -- this can be seen by the fact that in making the central argument of his POV (as in the example above) he almost always does so in absence of scripture showing his wild claims to actually have substance.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

God said --

How sad that ALL Scripture is INSPIRED BY GOD but DHK does not want to hear that Christ is the AUTHOR of it!!
Bob

Is Christ the author of these words Bob? A simple yes or no will do.

Matthew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

It is quite evident that God did not speak all the words written in the Word when we read:

Isaiah 14:13 (KJV) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 (KJV) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

God could not say I will be like the most High... God is the most High.

Bob, you need to rethink your flawed theology.

 

[Brother Bob]

God inspired that they all be written. He may not be the one who spoke them, but He was the one who spoke, that they had taken place and were said, so therefore we can believe them. When they were not instructions from Him directly, but was what someone else had said. He inspired the writer with words, they had been spoken and by whom. So the Lord did speak them through the Spirit though some were the words of others, still He was the one who repeated them as the inspired word of God, so we as a people could receive them as truth. So all the scriptures were spoke of God to those He chose to write them, though many words were God telling what someone else had said.

Rom 15:4For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

2Ti 3:16All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

They might not of been His words, but were all given by Him through inspiration, for our learning.

Being that scriptures are the inspired word of God, we accept and believe them. If we had of received them some other way, it is doubtful we would of believed.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
Quote:
Christ explains this concept of fiery hell destroying both body and soul using "everlasting fire"

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire (everlasting fire kjv).

God ALSO said -

John 16
12 ""I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 ""But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 ""He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "" All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.[/b]


DHK - and no HBSMN seem to want to "game this point" by quoting Satan AS IF that helps them deny that Jude 7 and Matt 10:28 are the Words of God GIVEN to us BY God through the Holy Spirit SPEAKING the WORDS of Christ TO US!!

HBSMN said

God could not say I will be like the most High... God is the most High.

Bob, you need to rethink your flawed theology.

DHK said

You have this warped idea that just because all the Bible is inspired (which is true), that it all becomes the words of Jesus. That is wrong.

Don't try to wiggle out of your lie.

How sad that these two board members would resort to gaming and rabbit rrailing like this -- with something as serious as the Word of God!!

THANKFULLY we still choose NOT to blame baptists for this glaring example of bible wrenching argumentation given by DHK and now HBSMN. I doubt that many of them would resort to such shallow gaming of the text.

Since it is normally left up to me to point out the obvious on this area of te board-- here goes again.


Isaiah 14:13 (KJV) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 (KJV) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


In the case of Isaiah 14 it is NOT Satan that is INSPIRING Isaiah nor INFORMING Isaiah of HIS own actions and words. God is speaking as HE says "THOU has Said" it is GOD telling Isaiah what was spoken by Satan - and in this case God relates the information in the form of God addressing SATAN.

Isaiah DID NOT GO TO SATAN to get the information gentlemen!! Please try to make some sense in your arguments - desperate though they may be to try and REMOVE God from being the SOURCE for both MAtt 10:28 AND Jude 7!!!!

BTW - I notice that Brother Bob is now posting on here - pointing out the glaringly obvious - and he has my sincere appreciation.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

God inspired that they all be written. He may not be the one who spoke them, but He was the one who spoke, that they had taken place and were said, so therefore we can believe them.

Indeed. In the Isaiah 14 account it is GOD that is addressing Satan saying "THOU has said" and God reports this to Isaiah so Isaiah can write it out - thus it remains true EVEN in this case "ALL scripture is given BY inspiration from God".

When they were not instructions from Him directly, but was what someone else had said. He inspired the writer with words, they had been spoken and by whom. So the Lord did speak them through the Spirit though some were the words of others, still He was the one who repeated them as the inspired word of God, so we as a people could receive them as truth. So all the scriptures were spoke of God to those He chose to write them, though many words were God telling what someone else had said.

Indeed - and it is PARTICULARLY the case when we have pastoral teaching in the form of apostolic letters as in the case of Jude -- that it is GOD who is the SOURCE of the teaching through the Holy Spirit.

(Recall that DHK is trying to escape the glaringly obvious fact that the Holy Spirit inspired JUDE and the H.S is taking the WORDS of CHRIST (as stated in John 16) and giving them to Jude -- so that this is in fact the teaching of Christ HIMSELF to the NT church).

Bro Bob
Being that scriptures are the inspired word of God, we accept and believe them. If we had of received them some other way, it is doubtful we would of believed.

Also true. Though we might read and be blessed by the words of Jude - we are the more directed to heed them knowing that in fact they are the teaching of Christ Himself THROUGH the Holy Spirit given TO Jude

A glaringly obvious point which even most Baptists would agree to -- but DHK has walked himself out onto a limb in one of his "deny all" responses. He has now painted himself into this little corner - and he got here by FIRST arguing that doctrines should be defined and supported WITHOUT using scripture that is located in the OT (in the case of any doctrine regarding the 4th commandment) and now extends that to any doctrine regarding EVERLASTING fire and the book of Jude AND the book of 2Peter!!.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Post 219 page 22 of this thread -- Bob said

Summary PART 1 -

1. You raised the pretend argument that Apollumi CAN not mean DESTORY as in "reduced to ashes" and that was SHOWN to be false in the case of the DESTRUCTION that results from EVERLASTING fire.

Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

Christ explains this concept of fiery hell destroying both body and soul using "everlasting fire"

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire (everlasting fire kjv).

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

I further showed that in Matt 2 and in Matt 12 we SEE Apollumi used in the case of moth and rust DESTROYING.in this life "for real"!

Though I have no problems or doubts about the fact that most Baptists would try to find a way out of this conclusion -- and would seek some argument to argue another definition for "destroy" what I DID not expect is a PURE form of eisegesis and scripture wrenching that would argue that the WORDS of Christ in the Gospels (written many years after the cross) would be DIVIDED AGAINST the Words of Christ in the NT epistles given by inspiration through the Holy Spirit.

I would have expected a more Bible-based well-reasoned argument from Baptists rather than leaping wildly off the cliff combining slander, ad hominem and eisegesis in the DHK post that includes this idea

DHK said

You have this warped idea that just because all the Bible is inspired (which is true), that it all becomes the words of Jesus. That is wrong.

Don't try to wiggle out of your lie.

In Christ,

Bob.

 

[DHK]

BTW - I notice that Brother Bob is now posting on here - pointing out the glaringly obvious - and he has my sincere appreciation.
Bob

Too bad you don't understand what Bro.Bob is saying.

God inspired that they all be written. He may not be the one who spoke them, but He was the one who spoke, that they had taken place and were said, so therefore we can believe them.

He said that God was not necessarily the one who spoke the words. That is what I have been telling you all along, which you refuse to admit. Jude spoke the words of Jude, not Christ. Please don't lie about it, as you have been all along because you are too proud to admit a mistake. If not go and study or take a course on Bibliology, particularly on inspiration.

"Thou shalt not surely die." Whose words are they? Care to answer?

Why do you insist on twisting scripture to such an extent that you want to put one author's words in the mouth of another's words. That is a perversion of scripture. It is part of what defines a cult. You cut one verse out of one part of the Bible and paste in another part of the Bible, and then say that someone else wrote it? What kind of perversion is that?? No wonder the Muslims claim that our Bible has changed so that it can't be recognized any longer. Cut and paste; cut and paste; cut and paste. Is that your modus operandi?

 

[BobRyan]

The positon is simple. Christ did not write the words in the Book of Jude; Jude did, albeit they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Likewise, Christ did not write the words of Satan: "...if you bow down and worship me," yet they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

If you assert that the words of the Book of Jude are the words of Christ then you must also assert that the words recorded in the latter statement found in Mat.4 are also the words of Christ. Are the words of Satan also the words of Christ. Yet those very words of Satan are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Hard to believe any Bible student would pursue such a shallow strained argument.

#1. Christ did not write the book of Matthew OR the book of Jude -- OBVIOUSLY. BOTH books were written decades AFTER the cross!!

#2. The Holy SPIRIT DID inspire BOTH writers and the Holy Spirit DID speak FROM CHRIST JUST as Christ claimed HE WOULD>

Note that Matthew was not present at the EVENT described in Matt 4 - GOD had to TELL Him about it. So EVEN that case (which you bring up) is a case of GOD being the source of the information - NOT Matthew going to the devil for a quote!!!

God said -
John 16
12 ""I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 ""But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 ""He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "" All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.[/b]


Hence we CAN accept the teaching in BOTH Matt and Jude regarding "everlasting fire as "GOD's WORD" and more specifically as the WORDS of Christ GIVEN through the Holy Spirit!!

The point Remains!! (All the ad hominem, bluster and rabbit trailing not withstanding)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

He said that God was not necessarily the one who spoke the words. That is what I have been telling you all along, which you refuse to admit. Jude spoke the words of Jude, not Christ.

Dead wrong! Jude WROTE the words just as Matthew WROTE the words in his letter. But the Apostolic teaching found in their writings comes FROM CHRIST. THEY are not the source - Christ is -- it is HIS WORD -- and so we are correct to call it "THE WORD OF GOD"... INSTEAD of "THE WORD OF JUDE"!

A more glaringly obvious point could hardly be imagined sir.



Please don't lie about it, as you have been all along because you are too proud to admit a mistake. If not go and study or take a course on Bibliology, particularly on inspiration.

DHK
You cut one verse out of one part of the Bible and paste in another part of the Bible, and then say that someone else wrote it? What kind of perversion is that??

DHK you are wildly making up new things faster than I can hold you accountable for your error-upon-error style of argument.

I keep insisting that CHRIST DID NOT Write the book of Matthew OR the book of JUDE -- but that BOTH Books ARE the WORD OF GOD and that Christ is teaching in BOTH through inspiration via the Holy Spirit.

You know - just the glaringly obvious sir!! Your antic of making-stuff-up to simply to launch more baseless accusations and false ad hominem is reaching new lows.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

You know - just the glaringly obvious sir!! Your antic of making-stuff-up to simply to launch more baseless accusations and false ad hominem is reaching new lows.
Bob

I am not making things up Bob. You do avoid my questions however.
Who said:
"Ye shall not surely die." Christ or Satan?

Who said: "Go up thou bald head; go up thou bald head." Was it Christ?

Who said: "I will give you all of these if you but fall down and worship me?" Was it Christ?

Who said: "From walking to and fro across the face of the earth." Was it Christ?

Who said: "Crucify him! Crucify him!" Was it Christ?

Answer thou me Bob!!

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

DHK,

Bob cannot answer you truthfully, for he thinks Christ did say those things.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Who provoked David to number Israel? 1 Chronicles 21

Who said, 'Be it far from Thee, Lord' Matthew 16:22

Truth be known, the entire Bible, from beginning to end, is God's Holy Word. But it is only all God's Word because He told the authors what to pen down as DHK has affirmed... not because He said it all.

Why would Christ tell Himself 'Be it far from Thee, Lord'?

Why would He go against His Father and tell Eve to eat of the fruit His Father forbade?

The answer? He would not!

Not every word in the Word of God was spoken by God.

 

[BobRyan]

dHK said
DHK
You cut one verse out of one part of the Bible and paste in another part of the Bible, and then say that someone else wrote it? What kind of perversion is that??

DHK you are wildly making up new things faster than I can hold you accountable for your error-upon-error style of argument.

I keep insisting that CHRIST DID NOT Write the book of Matthew OR the book of JUDE -- but that BOTH Books ARE the WORD OF GOD and that Christ is teaching in BOTH through inspiration via the Holy Spirit.

You know - just the glaringly obvious sir!! Your antic of making-stuff-up to simply to launch more baseless accusations and false ad hominem is reaching new lows.

NOTE When DHK wants to SHOW where his standard false accusation is coming from - (he claims I said that someone other than Mattthew WROTE matthew or that someone other than Jude WROTE the letter of Jude) HE quotes ME Saying that The Holy Spirit inspired bot and that the H.S was taking the Words of CHRIST as CHRIST SAID HE WOULD..

It is left as an exercise for the reader to remember DHKS glaringly obvious flawed logic!!

And when EXPOSED on this obvious point DHK's insightful response is

I am not making things up Bob. You do avoid my questions however

INSTEAD of showing some QUOTE from me where I CLAIM someone else WROTE the book of Jude or someone else WROTE the book of Matthew!!!

As I said - it is always left up to me to state the obvious on this section of the BB!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As I ALREADY stated --

---------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 14:13 (KJV) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 (KJV) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


In the case of Isaiah 14 it is NOT Satan that is INSPIRING Isaiah nor INFORMING Isaiah of HIS own actions and words. God is speaking as HE says "THOU has Said" it is GOD telling Isaiah what was spoken by Satan - and in this case God relates the information in the form of God addressing SATAN.

Isaiah DID NOT GO TO SATAN to get the information gentlemen!! Please try to make some sense in your arguments - desperate though they may be to try and REMOVE God from being the SOURCE for both MAtt 10:28 AND Jude 7!!!!
-------------------------------------------------

And to DHK's NEXT wild leap of accusation and ad hominem I said

------------------------
Bob said --
Dead wrong! Jude WROTE the words just as Matthew WROTE the words in his letter. But the Apostolic teaching found in their writings comes FROM CHRIST. THEY are not the source - Christ is -- it is HIS WORD -- and so we are correct to call it "THE WORD OF GOD"... INSTEAD of "THE WORD OF JUDE"!

A more glaringly obvious point could hardly be imagined sir.
------------------------------------------------------------

So then DHK blindly tries yet another stunt to explain why I should not insist that the letter of JUDE is the WORD of God - the WORD of Christ Himself --

DHK said
Who said:
"Ye shall not surely die." Christ or Satan?

So now the SAME ANSWER already given and blindly ignored by DHK as he digs this hole deeper.

Bob rephrased for Moses' letter
In the case of GEN 3 it is NOT Satan that is INSPIRING MOSES nor INFORMING MOSES of the serpent's actions and words. God is speaking as HE tells MOSES what the SERPENT said.

The glaringly obvious point is that this is GOD telling MOSES what was spoken by Satan -

MOSES DID NOT GO TO SATAN to get the information gentlemen!! Please try to make some sense in your arguments - desperate though they may be to try and REMOVE God from being the SOURCE for the instruction on ETERNAL FIRE in both MAtt 10:28 AND Jude 7!!!!

Again the same glaringly obvious answer to the same shallow argument from DHK. (I just can't believe this is some kind of secret from all Baptists the way DHK and HBSMN pretend not to get the ObVIOUS).

So then HBSMN comes along and says

HBSMN
Bob cannot answer you truthfully

For the answers ALREADY GIVEN and OBVIOUS TO ALL!!

I have to admit it guys - this is a new low for both of you.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

That was a long post for DHK and HBSMN -- sorry about that -- here is a short snippet from it --

In the case of GEN 3 it is NOT Satan that is INSPIRING MOSES nor INFORMING MOSES of the serpent's actions and words. God is speaking as HE tells MOSES what the SERPENT said.

The glaringly obvious point is that this is GOD telling MOSES what was spoken by Satan -

MOSES DID NOT GO TO SATAN to get the information gentlemen!! Please try to make some sense in your arguments - desperate though they may be to try and REMOVE God from being the SOURCE for the instruction on ETERNAL FIRE in both MAtt AND Jude 7!!!!

 

[BobRyan]

Who provoked David to number Israel? 1 Chronicles 21

Who said, 'Be it far from Thee, Lord' Matthew 16:22

Truth be known, the entire Bible, from beginning to end, is God's Holy Word. But it is only all God's Word because He told the authors what to pen down

Now SEE HBSMN - you SEEM to get the glaringly obvious point!

Why then take wild leaps of ad hominem and false accusation to prop up the failed argument that it is NOT CHRIST who is INSTRUCTING and TEACHING in both the writing of Matthew and the APOSTOLIC LETTER of Jude -- JUST because you don't like the way God INSTRUCTS us regarding the teaching of everlasting fire in JUDE????

Why stoop to such levels sir?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK,

Bob cannot answer you truthfully, for he thinks Christ did say those things.

It is instructive for the reader that you provide NO QUOTE FROM ME to support your wild false accusations!

You seem to think that false accusation ALONE is all that is needed to hold sway with the readers of the Baptist Board.

Why not PROVIDE EVIDENCE when falsely accusing others?

In Christ,

Bob